freedom or censorship

[kristopin]

ok so here we go again. i took a break because a wise young lady who introduced me to this forum had told me not to get too involves and i think i had.

so here we go again. the subject: freedom vs censorship?
which do you prefer and why?

i prefer freedom myself. as i see it the problem with censorship is who is the censor. i would expect the site owners untimately have the right to decide but not any members. all of our opinions are of equal importance, the content may not be equal in thought or sentiment but they are indeed equal in value. i prefer not to be a sheep and let someone else lead me around. i like to do my own thinking and decision making. it is what our fathers and their father fought two wars over. i resrve the right and the freedom to think for myself. i do no give anyone dominion over my thoughts and words. i will not be anyones slave. freedom allows me to be the adult and decide and to accept the consequences of my decisions. i give nobody the right to rule me. nobody speaks for me without my permission. the difficulty for a censor is for them to decide how far they can go in censoring and how much power will corrupt them to the point they think their thoughts are more important than mine. if there is such a thing then only god has that power.

i know some people that use this forum can be very annoying, or even hateful and down right rude and agressive. they will use 'foul' language and say other things that are mean spirited. tohers will just say really stupid things.

if we as a group or individual object to anyones thoughts or expressions then we have to express ourselves and say we do not like it and why. perhaps with enough reason and enough folks expressing their dislike for something then those that offend may learn to change, but we cannot disrespect freedom enough to try to force them to change or we ourselves can also have this pressure brought to bear upon use.

simply live and let live. enjoy the different colors of the folks here.

please let me know either thru posts on this thread, PM's or emails what you think about freedom vs censorship.

remember as tgirls and their admireres we have a long fihgt ahead to find our level of freedom in the great society that does not want to know about our sexuality, just as they did not want to know about gays.

[kristopin]

im back

admin im back for awhile. after adjusting my thought processes to having died and come back literally i find myself a little more agressive, time is short now has new meaning for me.

[Foxy Basket]

As the person who suggested that you "not to get too involved" I can say that it was not an attempt at censorship. It was a heartfelt suggestion, from one friend to another, not to let the forum anger you in a way that raised your blood pressure. Admin's right, we need you around here, and I want you to stick around for a long while - no point in letting the forum take you away from us!

I was just relating a bit of advice based on previous experience. I took my own break over the holidays because the forum was getting to me, and I needed to clear my head. But I'm glad you're back, and once more starting interesting threads for us to discuss.

You've asked a question that I don't consider myself qualified to answer. . . I'm not sure if any of us truly know the "right" answer, but Admin often finds himself in a position where he has to use his judgement accordingly. I'll offer my opinion, with the caveat that it's impossible to know what's "right."

What we understand as "Free Speech" is a varied concept, but the US First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law. . .abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press. . ." So, the idea is that a government has no right to imprison you for your anti-government sentiments, nor can they shut down a newspaper that prints a picture of George Bush eating a banana. (sorry, had to throw that one in there!)

"Free Speech" does not give you the right to insist that a privately-run newspaper print your political manifesto in their ad section, if they refuse to print your words. "Free Speech" does not give you the right to run into a crowded theatre, and start screaming "FIRE!!!" so that people trample each other on the way to the exits. Finally, "Free Speech" does not give you the right to write nasty things about someone in an online forum if the Admin doesn't want you to.

"Free Speech" is a right, in the sense that you can start your own forum, and write whatever the hell you want. Posting on a privately-owned forum is a privilege, and those who abuse that privilege may very well lose it. Admin controls the site, so he has every right to determine what he deems appropriate, and what he does not. He has made very clear, with his recent implementation of "penalty points," what is not allowed. For those who don't like it, find another forum to frequent.

I've never asked Admin to remove or censor an already-made post, but I have requested, on several occasions, that a specific member's posting privileges be revoked because they broke the rules. Now that there is a clear list of what's acceptable, people no longer have any excuses.

Freedom of speech is designed to limit government persecution, and allow people to peacefully protest without fear of recrimination. It allows people to criticize the government, and their policies, without fear of arrest, assault or execution. It was designed to limit the government's power over the people, and allow them to set up soapboxes in whatever public places they please.

This forum is not a public park. It has an owner, who is allowed to set rules as he sees fit; those who break the rules shall suffer the consequences.

/rant

Keep it up, Admin - you're still doing a great job.

[kristopin]

i agree

the site's owner can do anything they want. if they chose not to do anything then we are the ones that have to speak out. we are the ones that have to accept our freedom and adult responsabilites and express our misgivings. freedom of thought is intimately private. nobody really knows what goes on in anothers head. the right to express those thoughts are a different story but again we can try.

[Lani]

well said...

Very good! well said young lady. I was about to say that LOL!

I join you in your opinion and share your belief.

As the person who suggested that you "not to get too involved" I can say that it was not an attempt at censorship. It was a heartfelt suggestion, from one friend to another, not to let the forum anger you in a way that raised your blood pressure. Admin's right, we need you around here, and I want you to stick around for a while.

I was just relating a bit of advice based on previous experience. I took my own break over the holidays because the forum was getting to me, and I needed to clear my head. But I'm glad you're back, and once more starting interesting threads for us to discuss.

You've asked a question that I don't consider myself qualified to answer. . . I'm not sure if any of us truly know the "right" answer, but Admin often finds himself in a position where he has to use his judgement accordingly. I'll offer my opinion, with the caveat that it's impossible to know what's "right."

What we understand as "Free Speech" is a varied concept, but the US First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law. . .abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press. . ." So, the idea is that a government has no right to imprison you for your anti-government sentiments, nor can they shut down a newspaper that prints a picture of George Bush eating a banana. (sorry, had to throw that one in there!)

"Free Speech" does not give you the right to insist that a privately-run newspaper print your political manifesto in their ad section, if they refuse to print your words. "Free Speech" does not give you the right to run into a crowded theatre, and start screaming "FIRE!!!" so that people trample each other on the way to the exits. Finally, "Free Speech" does not give you the right to write nasty things about someone in an online forum if the Admin doesn't want you to.

"Free Speech" is a right, in the sense that you can start your own forum, and write whatever the hell you want. Posting on a privately-owned forum is a privilege, and those who abuse that privilege may very well lose it. Admin controls the site, so he has every right to determine what he deems appropriate, and what he does not. He has made very clear, with his recent implementation of "penalty points," what is not allowed. For those who don't like it, find another forum to frequent.

I've never asked Admin to remove or censor an already-made post, but I have requested, on several occasions, that a specific member's posting privileges be revoked because they broke the rules. Now that there is a clear list of what's acceptable, people no longer have any excuses.

Freedom of speech is designed to limit government persecution, and allow people to peacefully protest without fear of recrimination. It allows people to criticize the government, and their policies, without fear of arrest, assault or execution. It was designed to limit the government's power over the people, and allow them to set up soapboxes in whatever public places they please.

This forum is not a public park. It has an owner, who is allowed to set rules as he sees fit; those who break the rules shall suffer the consequences.

/rant

Keep it up, Admin - you're still doing a great job.

[O'C]

I'am a big fan of censorship and feel that Admin_2008 is the GOD of this forum. At any time you can be struck down with the "Ban Stick" so you need to know your role on this forum!

All this talk about freedom of speach talk from Nikki, went over my head to be honest. If she said anything bad about Admin_2008? I say strike her down with the Ban Stick. Now if she has agreed with Admin_2008? I say great post and I agree with you 100%.



All hail Admin_2008, now board members kneel before your forum GOD!



O'C

[kristopin]

big sticks are cool i guess

so far all of us agree that Admin had the right to do anything here. seems only natural to me. if i owned a forum like this i'd also have to decide how i would or wouldn't rule my kingdom. maybe a little chaos is fun to watch. its also nice to see all the colors of our world.

[snoodle]

I like Censorship. As long as i'm the one doing the censoring.

People are like kids you can let them run around and have fun, but eventually all hell will break loose. That's when you need someone around that's gonna smack them upside the back of the head and put them back in line.

If I was Admin I would have a blast making peoples lives miserable. Lol

You got to give him credit for having all that power and not letting him corrupt him. It takes alot of self discipline and respect for others.

My hat off to Admin.

[kristopin]

fan club

I like Censorship. As long as i'm the one doing the censoring.

People are like kids you can let them run around and have fun, but eventually all hell will break loose. That's when you need someone around that's gonna smack them upside the back of the head and put them back in line.

If I was Admin I would have a blast making peoples lives miserable. Lol

You got to give him credit for having all that power and not letting him corrupt him. It takes alot of self discipline and respect for others.

My hat off to Admin.

ADMIN this is turning into a fan club for you.

you do do a good job and show a lot of patience.

[Tgirltoy]

Kristopin, I empathize with your sentiments of frustration. "Freedom of speech" is only one aspect and Nikki eloquently provided us with a broader perspective.

Perhaps what we are all attempting to express is that this board has strayed from it's primary objective of being a place where we can discuss, in a positive manner, the celebration of all things She-male.

I belong to a well respected GG board where the Moderator, members and the GG Service Providers would not tolerate 2/3 of what is allowed on this board. There too, many reminders and deletions are exercised.

I believe the actions Admin demonstrated lately is to provide legitimacy to this board and I for one regret but applaud the actions. Regretting that there are participants that cannot regulate themselves.

Topics like this one, that you have presented Kristopin, is the starting point on which we begin to take back this board so that we can get back to why we are all here...to share, enjoy and to love all things She-male in a positive environment.

Tgirltoy

[kristopin]

all colors

i think part of what drove me to this thread was a need for me to try to express my sense of freedom, responsability. i have learned a great amount from this forum about myself and my needs. i have not liked some of the threads i have seen and some of the comments other folks have made. the catch 22 here is that if they had not posted i would not have learned that some girls can get very nasty when they argue, i would not have learned that there is an area of great confusion when deciding if we admirers are gay or not. what is the sexual defining word for us. i would not have learned that there are so many colors when we talk about tgirls and who we are. i think what i am trying to say is that we have to understand that there are those that will totally piss us off but if they didn't behave or post the way they do then how will we know what pisses us off? i have always tried to understand other humans and how they react to things. we are a marvelous species in all our glorious differences.
so again i dont think we should censor but we should speak out.

[Foxy Basket]

Thanks OC.

Yep unfortunately I too cannot get through Nikki's posts sometimes, because they are way too big.
However they often are packed with info.

As they teach in business school, BE CONCISE.
You have to get thru to us ADD victims.

I don't think Kristopin has any need to be censored.

Some topics lend themselves to long discussions. People have written volumes about Free Speech, and the US Supreme Court has been writing 1000-page decisions about it for more than two centuries. Go to the Library of Congress, and start reading about Free Speech law, and I guarantee you, you can read for every single minute for the rest of your life and never finish the topic.

I'm not disputing that my posts are hard to read, and they're often quite dense. But some topics can't be compressed into just a few lines, and an argument without supporting evidence is just an opinion without facts. We all have opinions, but if you want to make a point, you need to back it up. Otherwise, you're not really saying anything at all.

I'm a writer - have been since I was a kid. I genuinely love language, and love expressing myself through this medium. I spend a lot of time writing to academics, and without citations and evidence to back up your claims, you simply won't survive. Sometimes I forget who my audience is, and my other pursuits bleed over into my more casual discussions.

But I won't apologize for it, just as I won't insist that other posters apologize for their horrendous spelling or non-existent grammar. We can express ourselves in whatever way we choose, and as long as we're not being nasty or insulting, we have the right to use whatever words we please.

After all, isn't that exactly what free speech is all about?

[cobbler]

I think it was Voltaire who said (and I paraphrase here) "I may disagree completely with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." There are disputes in the historical and philosophical world as to the actual author of that statement, but there are few who disagree with the sentiment.
That said, hate speech is in fact in the criminal code. Freedom without some laws is anarchy.

[toban]

Hopefully the Forum will soon be returned to it's intended objective!

I must express my gratitude here:

- to Kristopin for his earlier post, a post responsible not only for starting this thread but more importantly for initiating this badly needed discussion on freedom and censorship.

- to Nikki for her eloboration on the obligations each of us is required to observe while posting here on a private Forum, and for pointing out that "Freedom of Expression" does not grant us the right to humiliate, denigrate or deliberately injure another's feelings or reputation while expressing our thoughts or opinions.

- to Admin for his fair-minded approach in dealing with disputes and for his attempts to regulate the content of this Forum by taking action against those who, on purpose, knowingly refuse to acknowledge those obligations which have been pointed out above by Nikki.

---------------------------------------

It is my hope that now, with Admin's statement on what is to be considered "unacceptable content", that abuse of other posters will diminish and this Forum will return to a friendly gathering place where all will be welcomed and appreciated as members, without the prevailing bitterness and anger, that has been so evident here lately.

Kristopin, I empathize with your sentiments of frustration. "Freedom of speech" is only one aspect and Nikki eloquently provided us with a broader perspective.

Perhaps what we are all attempting to express is that this board has strayed from it's primary objective of being a place where we can discuss, in a positive manner, the celebration of all things She-male. - - -

I believe the actions Admin demonstrated lately is to provide legitimacy to this board and I for one regret but applaud the actions. - -

Topics like this one, that you have presented Kristopin, is the starting point on which we begin to take back this board so that we can get back to why we are all here...to share, enjoy and to love all things She-male in a positive environment. Tgirltoy

[kristopin]

freedom

thanks to all for joining in this thread.

i took me awhile and a much needed break to decide where i stood on freedom and censorship. always having been somewhat of a nonconformist i tended to lean towards freedom. i think one of the things about a forum like this is 'what is it's purpose' and how was that defined. if this is an 'open' forum then i think we have to expect some crap, for lack of a better word, that we do not like. i think that admin was very clever in isolating that great big nasty thread where the girls were going at in a ver vigorous form' that allowed us to view it if we wanted but sort of seperated it from the rest of us and let the girls have a free for all. nobody could control that thread.

i have talk about all of our colors in here and weirdly it is also like a grocery store in analogy. you chose the store, say sobeys is this forum, then chose which isle you will go down, lets say the fruits and veg, you then can look at the vegs and decide if the brussels sprouts are good this week or not etc etc. so we get to see and choose what is good and what is bad. i kind of see all of us in here in the same way a great variety some that i like and sone that i dont , my choice. hence freedom. btw i dont like butter squash but it is a cool color.

cheers all.