US Traitor sentenced to 35 years wants sex change now.

[toban]

The lack of serious thought here is getting so very tiresome!

Unfortunately, Ginnydawn, Candyland et al, you’d all stand to make much more progress towards your ultimate goal if you’d follow the lead of these BC women – http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...pless-day.html

You and the others are simply wasting your energy by trying to mix issues such as the Gender issue, Women’s issues and the War Crimes issue with the original charges against Manning, as you seem to be trying to do here on this Forum. It is totally pointless.

None of the issues which you talk about here have anything whatsoever to do with Manning’s case.

Your TGirlForums posts seeking consideration of unrelated issues in his case will have zero effect upon the courts in the USA. The issues you bring up are completely outside of, and totally independent of, the issues on which Manning is to have been charged and tried i.e. theft of and disclosure of classified government documents. That is the one and only issue before the U.S. Federal Court and so that is the only issue that can ever be considered by that system.

All this Forum chatter then is for naught and it will get you absolutely no consideration or traction anywhere, but most definitely, not by any legal authority in the USA!

Go to the street like those girls in BC – now that would get your cause way more attention than you could ever get by any post in a thread about a US traitor!

[Ana_Jolie]

But what's your opinion on the topic.
My reaction is my opinion. What is your opinion?

What did I do wrong?
My opinion is not necessarily right, it is up for debate.

You just want to call me stupid, but won't say why.

I am not saying I am innocent, because i didn't do anything.
Was I charged with a crime I do not know about.

Still you don't offer your opinion, you just dog me and call me names.
You always dog me, on other forums, and here.
If you don't like me just ignore me.
If you want to say I am wrong then say why, don't call me names.

If I am guilty as you say, what am I guilty of?

I refer to this person as male, you prefer to refer to them as female I think?
I gave my argument which is not wrong, it is my opinion.

You don't discuss things with people unless they agree with you?

You are the only one who keeps trying to make this personal. I have made absolutely every effort to ignore this. I have not attacked I have not called you names. You do not matter that much to me to frazzled over you and tell you all about yourself. So get over it and move on and stop trying to bait me into something I have no desire to be part of. Stop dwelling in the past move on.

[Rockheart]

Unfortunately, Ginnydawn, Candyland et al, you’d all stand to make much more progress towards your ultimate goal if you’d follow the lead of these BC women – http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...pless-day.html

You and the others are simply wasting your energy by trying to mix issues such as the Gender issue, Women’s issues and the War Crimes issue with the original charges against Manning, as you seem to be trying to do here on this Forum. It is totally pointless.

None of the issues which you talk about here have anything whatsoever to do with Manning’s case.

Your TGirlForums posts seeking consideration of unrelated issues in his case will have zero effect upon the courts in the USA. The issues you bring up are completely outside of, and totally independent of, the issues on which Manning is to have been charged and tried i.e. theft of and disclosure of classified government documents. That is the one and only issue before the U.S. Federal Court and so that is the only issue that can ever be considered by that system.

All this Forum chatter then is for naught and it will get you absolutely no consideration or traction anywhere, but most definitely, not by any legal authority in the USA!

Go to the street like those girls in BC – now that would get your cause way more attention than you could ever get by any post in a thread about a US traitor!

Yes, it appears to me they are trying to justify an illegal act with a bunch of unrelated rhetoric.
Such a waste of good energy that should be focused on something that will actually move things ahead for transgenders.
Stuff like this just makes the majority of people not take transgenders seriously.
Just another conspiracy theory.....

[Ana_Jolie]

Yes, it appears to me they are trying to justify an illegal act with a bunch of unrelated rhetoric.
Such a waste of good energy that should be focused on something that will actually move things ahead for transgenders.
Stuff like this just makes the majority of people not take transgenders seriously.
Just another conspiracy theory.....

No where did I say am I trying to justify an illegal act. I was put off by the tone and how you expressed several times that this is a man thats a man all he is is a man... Thats what my post was all about and then you try and make it personal and try and play it off like I am just flying off the handle for no reason. Yes I agree that her coming out with the fact that she is trans after doing this trial probably portrays trans people in a negative light but it does not take away from the fact that she is human. I believe that every person deserves respect. Who are you to say what she deserves and what she doesnt deserve? Now I am officially done. I am going back into hibernation on this site. Bye

[Rockheart]

No where did I say am I trying to justify an illegal act. I was put off by the tone and how you expressed several times that this is a man thats a man all he is is a man... Thats what my post was all about and then you try and make it personal and try and play it off like I am just flying off the handle for no reason. Yes I agree that her coming out with the fact that she is trans after doing this trial probably portrays trans people in a negative light but it does not take away from the fact that she is human. I believe that every person deserves respect. Who are you to say what she deserves and what she doesnt deserve? Now I am officially done. I am going back into hibernation on this site. Bye

Sorry no harm intended.
By "they" I was not referring to you at all, I was referring to the group of people that are pursuing this.
There was no intention, whatsoever, to include you in "they".
Maybe you can blame Toban because he grouped you in with the whole movement.
I did not notice he included you in the "They" when i replied to his post.
I am just trying to continue the discussion.

People do deserve respect but criminals lose their rights.
I don't think this person has the right to demand anything, they are guilty plain and simple.
They made many mistakes, joining the military, selling out their country.
People make mistakes and they should admit it, not blame everyone else.
I am sick of people blaming other things for their own bad choices in life.

It is purely my opinion that traitors should get their asses whooped.
It has nothing to do with transgenders, it is traitors i speak of.
If I sell out my country or organization wholesale, i feel my ass should be kicked.
This is not an official stance, it is a personal one.

I said in my opinion this person is male at this point.
And legally this person is a male.
In your opinion they are female.
Neither of us is wrong.

What I said is why is so important that I use certain pronouns when 99% of the population isn't.
I have never met nor talked with this person.
In the news they are convicting a man.
If this person wanted to be a female so bad they should not have joined the army as a man and made a commitment.

If i met this person and they were in a female personae, I would call her her.
If i met this person and they were in a male personae, i would call him him.
I am not going to try and determine if a stranger is actually some gender that they do not appear.

I am not disrespecting anyone.
This person is disrespecting a whole country.

[xoxJanexox]

So this dude gets sentenced to 35 years in Levenworth and he suddenly wants to become the girl he always was.
Can't anyone pull this bullshit? Sure he was a crossdresser in the past but who hasn't been to some extent?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/23/army-cant-say-if-manning-gender-swap-would-be-permitted/

This is how many men get out of mandatory military service in Thailand, become a Ladyboy.
To me it just seems like a scam to get out of spending time in the general population.
Probably special treatment in a medical facility.
He can go through all the motions and keep putting off the final surgery saying he is not ready or something.

I don't know if this should be allowed after men are convicted of essentially a life sentence.
Isn't this all part of freedom?

This was your original post Crag, and you made speculation based on mere assumptions into the motives of this solder to transform. You may want to call it an opinion, but I would strongly disagree with your "opinion"!

The tendencies here predated the committal and regardless, a prison is a prison! They don't segregate female prisoners in five-star hotels!

Let's please put aside all the issues related to the prosecution, convection and sentence. These are all unrelated and immaterial to the issue beforehand.

The question is simply: Does this person have the right to transform into a woman while serving the sentence or not?

In my opinion, he/she has the right to do so especially in this case where he/she had tendencies way long prior to his conviction. Generally speaking, I believe that anyone else should be allowed to do so as long as it is done in a supervised manner (e.g. psych assessment etc.). And by the way, funding is wholly different issue, just not to mix things up!

[Rockheart]

This was your original post Crag, and you made speculation based on mere assumptions into the motives of this solder to transform. You may want to call it an opinion, but I would strongly disagree with your "opinion"!

The tendencies here predated the committal and regardless, a prison is a prison! They don't segregate female prisoners in five-star hotels!

Let's please put aside all the issues related to the prosecution, convection and sentence. These are all unrelated and immaterial to the issue beforehand.

The question is simply: Does this person has the right to transform into a woman while serving the sentence or not?

In my opinion, he/she has the right to do so especially in this case where he/she had tendencies way long prior to his conviction. Generally speaking, I believe that anyone else should be allowed to do so as long as it is done in a supervised manner (e.g. psych assessment etc.). Any by the way, funding is wholly different issue, just not to mix things up!

When a person commits a crime they lose all their legal rights.
This person should have thought of this before they committed this crime.
Conjugal visit rights are not mandatory and only given to lower security prisoners generally.
So I do not think there is any precedence for this.

This person had the opportunity to transition before but decide to join the military.
Then they decided to sell out their country and were convicted.
In fact they do segregate prisoners they feel may be in danger or not fit into the general population.
My assumption is the general population would abuse a MTF trangender, no one is going to allow that.
If she went to a military prison, treason is the worst thing you can go there for.

Transition would mean special treatment.
They could not be in the general population so they would either be in some sort of special holding area or sent to a female prison. Since they are not yet a female physically, they probably would not be allowed in the female general population.
If they were not held in a special area in the prison the next most likely scenario is that they would be confined in a mental institution of some sort. The special treatment i speak of, is not having to do hard time.
Even if they were allowed to transition in the military it would be special treatment there too.

However, since everyone seems to put forth that being transsexual is a mental illness, would other soldiers trust a comrade that claims to be mentally ill? I think that TS are physically challenged, not mentally ill, this would be a much better stance.
It is pretty obvious that people with gender dysphoria should not join the army, unless they have serious doubts.

To me this is special treatment and extra dollars for a person that should have no rights.
That was my original thoughts.

However Jane, you really need to read the stuff that Ginny had put forward.
That blog says that this really has nothing to do with treason at all, that the US Federal and local government conspired over time to set Chelsea up because she was transgendered. This group claims that the government spent millions or billions taking this person down because they were embarrassed about have a transgender in their midst. (baloney)
http://www.philipsandifer.com/2013/0...f-breanna.html

They also claim the contents of the documents exposed somehow nullify that fact that Chelsea broke the law.
They are trying to say Chelsea did everyone a favour by exposing something that most people already knew.

I still think her lawyer wants all of this out in the media because it cast doubt in some peoples mind.
Ginny has pointed out that this person has a transgender past, which was not apparent to me from the one picture of them as a girl.

Now it seems this person is asking for special treatment for many reasons, and not just in prison.
One of them is that she was systematically targeted for destruction by all levels of government.
If only they were that important.

[xoxJanexox]

When a person commits a crime they lose all their legal rights.
This person should have thought of this before they committed this crime.
Conjugal visit rights are not mandatory and only given to lower security prisoners generally.
So I do not think there is any precedence for this.

This person had the opportunity to transition before but decide to join the military.
Then they decided to sell out their country and were convicted.
In fact they do segregate prisoners they feel may be in danger or not fit into the general population.
My assumption is the general population would abuse a MTF trangender, no one is going to allow that.
If she went to a military prison, treason is the worst thing you can go there for.

Transition would mean special treatment.
They could not be in the general population so they would either be in some sort of special holding area or sent to a female prison. Since they are not yet a female physically, they probably would not be allowed in the female general population.
If they were not held in a special area in the prison the next most likely scenario is that they would be confined in a mental institution of some sort. The special treatment i speak of, is not having to do hard time.
Even if they were allowed to transition in the military it would be special treatment there too.

However, since everyone seems to put forth that being transsexual is a mental illness, why would other soldiers trust a comrade that claims to be mentally ill. I think that TS are physically challenged, not mentally ill, this would be a much better stance.
It is pretty obvious that people with gender dysphoria should not join the army, unless they have serious doubts.

To me this is special treatment and extra dollars for a person that should have no rights.
That was my original thoughts.

However Jane, you really need to read the stuff that Ginny had put forward.
That blog says that this really has nothing to do with treason at all, that the US Federal and local government conspired over time to set Chelsea up because she was transgendered. This group claims that the government spent millions or billions taking this person down because they were embarrassed about have a transgender in their midst. (baloney)

They also claim the contents of the documents exposed somehow nullify that fact that Chelsea broke the law.
They are trying to say Chelsea did everyone a favour by exposing something that most people already knew.

I still think her lawyer wants all of this out in the media because it cast doubt in some peoples mind.
Ginny has pointed out that this person has a transgender past, which was not apparent to me from the one picture of them as a girl.

Now it seems this person is asking for special treatment for many reasons, and not just in prison.
One of them is that she was systematically targeted for destruction by all levels of government.
If only they were that important.

A prison is meant to "restrict" people rights but not to nullify them completely! People in prisons still have rights that are meant to be preserved!

Transgenders are nowadays part of the society and prisons must be equipped to deal with them so they can serve their time without getting special treatment compared to the other inmates (males/females). Your position makes the suggestion that transgenders automatically receives special treatment! We are so lucky to be discriminated against in real life and receive special treatment in prisons! It might be something new in the military and they should adapt to deal with it!

I have already read what Ginny put forward, but as I said the question for me is irrelevant to all the issues related to the prosecution, convection and sentence!

It is a simple question of whether a person in a prison is meant to be locked in his/her cell AND body? I can see that restricting people in cells might be viewed a fair restriction for certain amount of time depending on the offense committed. But, I would see locking someone in his/her undesired body to be just criminal in itself!

Your argument that he must have thought of that before committing the "crime" is just illogical!

[Rockheart]

A prison is meant to "restrict" people rights but not to nullify them completely! People in prisons still have rights that are meant to be preserved!

Transgenders are nowadays part of the society and prisons must be equipped to deal with them so they can serve their time without getting special treatment compared to the other inmates (males/females). Your position makes the suggestion that transgenders automatically receives special treatment! We are so lucky to be discriminated against in real life and receive special treatment in prisons! It might be something new in the military and they should adapt to deal with it!

I have already read what Ginny put forward, but as I said the question for me is irrelevant to all the issues related to the prosecution, convection and sentence!

It is a simple question of whether a person in a prison is meant to be locked in his/her cell AND body? I can see that restricting people in cells might be viewed a fair restriction for certain amount of time depending on the offense committed. But, I would see locking someone in his/her undesired body to be just criminal in itself!

Your argument that he must have thought of that before committing the "crime" is just illogical!

If you were already transgendered you would go to the jail of your current gender.
If you ID says female you would go to a female prison etc.
There is lots of transsexuals in jail and they are in the jail that their ID says, no need for a special program.
You should go the jail your ID says, if wanted to transition you shouldn't commit serious crimes like treason.

I have not seen anything where this person is under treatment for Gender dysphoria, or ever was.
No one is considered legally transgender without this diagnosis.

If this person was truly uncomfortable in their body, they wouldn't have made a multi year commitment to the military.
This person is just fine with their body, the problem they have is their integrity.
They state outright that they joined the military to try and fix the transgender feelings.
This tells me they were just fine with their bodies but were questioning their gender orientation and didn't like it.

I have questioned my own gender identity, as have many people.
Everyone has a balance between a male and female side, not just TG.
Anyone can feel like a woman, not just the special few.
Most of the time it isn't true transsexualism, however.

It is logical that they would have no problems had they not committed the crime.
They would be released from the military at some point and be able to pursue transition.
Being convicted of a crime does not mean you will have any rights at all.
It depends on the crime and the situation.
But had they not done this they would be free to do whatever they want outside the miltary.

However there is no way to let a criminal in jail transition without special treatment.
Anyone who commits a crime should think about their freedom first.

When it comes down to it prisons are mainly concerned about making sure prisoners are fed and healthy and have a place to shit.
That is the only thing they are obligated to provide, just basic rudimentary survival.
Being transgendered is a condition that has never killed anyone in it's own right.
There is no guarantees when you go to prison, none at all.

She is just lucky she didn't get hung as far as i am concerned.

[Carl Love]

This soldier's "crime" was to leak information which exposed massive war crimes by the US military, including mass murder, as well as various other sleazy and criminal acts by the US military and political elites. S/he is a hero, but in the modern security police state these heroic acts warrant a 35 year sentence, while the big criminals walk free in Washington. Chelsea deserves a medal, but instead will be slandered as a "traitor". I admire her courage.

[WastedYouth]

Just because you disagree with a law doesn't change the law.

[Shyla Wild]

I really don't see what the issue here is. She is a traitor. She betrayed her country and as such should be hung. End of Story. Who cares if she is TS or not.

Crag is 100% right. As a criminal you have zero rights. You gave those up when you got caught committing a crime. This situation is even worse because the person is a TRAITOR. She betrayed the same people she now wants help from. FUCK HER!

I agree with Crag also concerning medical. How is it that we have people without dental in this world or how about the rest of us out there that work our ASSES off for the funds for our transition? And this bitch betrays her country and they still pay for her transition? Is anyone paying for my transition? How about the rest of you girls? Don't any of you see the true injustice here? She is a criminal and getting a full transition paid for by the same government that won't lift a finger to help you. This is absolute BULLSHIT. Transition is a choice made by free people. Criminals lost that right to freedom. There is NO way in hell she deserves the public's help, and moreover: Criminals should be allowed BASIC medical.

Moreover, defending this person is just another step backwards for the TS movement and public awareness concerning us.

This one should rot next to Sylvia Boots.

[xoxJanexox]

Putting aside the spin made by the OP in this thread, the subject of this thread is not whether a traitor has the right to change gender or not? Rather, it is meant to be a broad one:

Whether a prisoner in general has such a right? if he/she qualified by the assessment of qualified professionals?

To hold otherwise is a proof of inherent bias against the individual in this thread, who is a prisoner after all. He committed a "crime" according the established laws and received the punishment for it from a military judge. The judge, and not any sympathizing group, is the one who made the judgment.

To say that prisoners have no right is, in my view, wrong. They still have the right to life for example, otherwise, they
could be shot to death the moment they enter their cells. They have the right to be treated equally, otherwise, all prisons could declare blatantly a discriminatory treatment among black and white inmates, for example.

They have the right to live in good health, both physical and mental. A personal qualified for gender dysphoria has to be treated or their well being could be severely affected to the point of suicide/attempted suicide. Now, who is funding this treatment is a completely different issue as I said earlier. The state could argue that it would treat him/her equal to the general population and not fund him/her, which is fair, and he/she could argue that he/she would fund him/herself. But that doesn't negate the right to make the choice to start with.

There is a spin on this thread by apparently two polarized groups and it is hard to stay in the middle and focus on the main subject.

[Shyla Wild]

To say that prisoners have no right is, in my view, wrong.

Unfortunately, when prisoners have more rights and advantages than I do, in my view this is wrong.

[xoxJanexox]

Unfortunately, when prisoners have more rights and advantages than I do, in my view this is wrong.

Agree totally.