Choices and obligations.

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[Rock Savage]

Hello Babe.

I don't think it's so much a matter of having the glimpse of free will--and then choosing not to make a free choice.

I think when you get that glimpse, that moment of full awareness, then any choice you make, in that moment, is freely made. Whether you chose for good or ill.

We just don't get too many of those moments. They are unforgettable when they happen.

[overhere]

When you say you "have" to go somewhere or do something, most people don't literally mean have to.

Language is like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedantic

That being said, if you make an appointment, you really should follow through with it.

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[Rock Savage]

What I mean to say is this, Babe:

Life is full of moments that appear to involve choice. What socks should I wear? Should I go on a program of diet and exercise? Should I put Mom in a nursing home?

We appear to ourselves to be exercising powers of free will at these moments. We may deliberate, agonize, consider ramifications, worry, change our minds many times and otherwise appear, to ourselves, to be choosing freely.

It's my belief that we are not, in fact, choosing freely and that all our deliberations and worries are in the nature of an imaginary puppet show. We almost always 1. feel impelled to move in one direction or another or 2. have no idea what to do, and essentially flip a coin.

Neither of these options has anything to do with freedom.

Rare moments of free choice have a peculiar sensation that goes with them. I know I'm being mystical and handwavy here.

At those moments one very clearly sees the inertia of one's life and previous choices and contingencies...and also the possibility of change.

That's the best I can do as far as explaining.

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[Rock Savage]

Babe:

To take one of your examples to illustrate what I'm saying...

The guy who "freaks out" at his boss and loses his job is acting in the grip of an irrational passion. "He", the objective "him" does not act. "It" acts.

We treat him as if he bore full responsibility for his acts...the same way we'd treat a criminal. "I couldn't help myself!" is unfortunately not a defense.

And that's the tragedy. We are indeed held responsible for these bogus choices that are made for us by our passions, our inclinations, etc. And there's no way around that. There's no other way to run a world.

In my opinion, YOU do not choose at those choice points you mention. IT chooses.

These are books that influence my thinking:

Daniel Dennett Freedom Evolves

George Ainslie The Breakdown of Will

P.D. Ouspensky In Search Of The Miraculous

[greep]

Hi Rock,

Thanks for clarifying for me.

Well, everything you've mentioned means you are making a choice. Socks, nursing home, diet and exercise. THOSE are choices.
Imaginary puppet show?

No one impells others to do things against their will, well, unless they are 1. in the military, 2. in jail/prison, 3. in parliament
4. married to a controlling spouse (oh yea, i've mentioned jail already), 5. a minor child, 6. belonging to some religious sect, 7. a slave to a Mistress. Even still, they could rebel and disobey. They would be punished, of course, but we see that happening all the time - some guy has had enough and FREAKS out on his boss - he loses his job. A wife turns against her overbearing husband. Minor children run away from home. The prisoner ends up in the "hole" for disobeying. Dishonorable discharge from the military. It all happens at some point. People choose to take no more.
I think that about covers it. Maybe there's more.

I m just trying to stress what i believe, and that is - anyone else CHOOSES what to do. It all comes down to freedom. Ah, but it's how we define freedom. I am FREE to choose to be homeless, and sleep under the stars, eat in food banks and soup kitchens, wear Sally-Ann clothes, beg on street corners eat out of garbage cans in the back of restos. We are all free to do that, if we choose to. Or i can choose a whole array of other things to do. It's all a choice.
No matter how rare a moment is, it's still a moment of CHOICE. Nothing mystical or handwavy at all about that.

I can smoke a big joint and try to explain the palm of my hand and say, "It's so mystical."
But it's still only just the palm of my hand.

Babe,
xoxo

I agree, with Babe, although I believe EVERYTHING in life is choice, People choose to enter the military, people choose to break the law, people choose to enter politics, people choose the person to marry, etc..

And when people arent given the freedom of choice (such as an arranged marriage) it becomes slavery and it becomes a human rights issue.

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[Rock Savage]

One of the few real choice points I've had in my life came when I stopped drinking.

One day an intense desire to drink overcame me and it was as if my body turned into a robot walking to the bar.

My "self", trapped in my head, was like the engineer on a train, trying to brake a runaway locomotive. That's exactly what it felt like.

Somehow I did manage to stop myself, even though for a while it seemed that my body would not obey.

On that day, I did feel that I had exercised "free will".

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