Shooting kids.....

[Franklinzed]

Agree with both Shyla and Crag, it's a two pronged problem - psychological/developmental issues not adequately addressed and the ease of access to crazy fire power.

Gun control is like trying to control your weight - if u consume more calories than u burn u WILL gain weight. Similarly the more guns you have in circulation, the more gun related violence you'll experience in that society.

While Gun Control is only half the equation, it is the easier half to deal with. Treating psychological issues, or the societal problems endemic in many U.S communities is a more complex problem

Did anyone notice that on the same day this tragedy struck Connecticut, a man in China attacked an elementary school there and slashed 22 children? No one died as far as I can tell in that incident.

People are crazy around the world but with tough gun control you will definitively reduce fatalities.

For some reason the U.S is crazy paranoid about any perceived assaults on their freedom. So even frequent massacres like this wont convince the populace to tighten gun control uniformly across the country

[wantitss63]

Agree with both Shyla and Crag, it's a two pronged problem - psychological/developmental issues not adequately addressed and the ease of access to crazy fire power.

Gun control is like trying to control your weight - if u consume more calories than u burn u WILL gain weight. Similarly the more guns you have in circulation, the more gun related violence you'll experience in that society.

While Gun Control is only half the equation, it is the easier half to deal with. Treating psychological issues, or the societal problems endemic in many U.S communities is a more complex problem

Did anyone notice that on the same day this tragedy struck Connecticut, a man in China attacked an elementary school there and slashed 22 children? No one died as far as I can tell in that incident.

People are crazy around the world but with tough gun control you will definitively reduce fatalities.

For some reason the U.S is crazy paranoid about any perceived assaults on their freedom. So even frequent massacres like this wont convince the populace to tighten gun control uniformly across the country

Yeah, the china attack was mentioned earlier in the thread.

I agree that tough gun control will work mostly everywhere - but maybe not in the US. This is a nation that enshrines the right to bear arms in their constitution. As far as i know, this is a legacy from the time when their existence as a nation was threatened by Redcoats (coming down from the barbarous frozen land up north....), Indians, bears and wolves. None of which pose a serious threat today, inless I'm seriously missing something). No politician I know of has the cojones to try and repeal the 2nd amendment.

Even if gun control laws WERE passed, the issues would then become enforcement - what to do about the 250 million (give or take) guns already out there? It would simply drive that immense industry underground.

I'm certainly NOT advocating doing nothing - that's the cowardly approach. That said, I simply have no clue what could realistically be done in the US to start restoring some sanity to the issue. As others have pointed out, it's not jsut a matter of gun control - it also involves mental health care and funding, education, etc.

Every time there's an awful, carnage-filled attack like this, CNN and other wheel out the same pro-and con- experts who say all the 'right' things and do.....nothing. A week or 2 later, it's off the front pages. I try not to be a cynic (really, I do), but i can't see this tragedy doing any better. I hope I'm wrong.

I think I'm gonna check out the thread on school-t-girls to cheer myself up...that'll do it.

[wantitss63]

Happens all the time here...pull up a chair....I'll tell you some stories.

HAHA! I'll be you will!
Truth is, I always enjoy a good discussion - I'm not trying to 'prove' anything - I'm happily proven wrong. My only goal is to learn something I didn't know before the discussion started. If that happens, then it's a good debate, as far as I'm concerned. This topic is so damn sad though, isn't it? It's easy to get caught up in the politics and the analysis, but real-life examples (like the one you shared) are so necessary to keep it real. At the end of the day, lives are being violently ended before they should naturally end.

[TheOtherEd]

I'm pretty libertarian. I think drugs should be legal and treated as a health problem. I think a boy should be able to turn into a girl. I think we should limit government spending. I think we should have a toss up between what is larger, the defense budget, or the national healthcare budget, and both should be small.

The other side of that is I'm not really going to get behind limiting freedoms like owning guns.

Tackling guns is just taking a run at a symptom. Fix the cause.

[maddplotter]

IT's just the overflow of the latin influence, and mainly latin gangs acting latin.
Detroit gangs are not the same, there is shootings but it is gang member vs gang member.
They don't do the degrading things, they just kill you.

These are not the original people we are talking about.
The USA is disturbed people getting guns, not specifically gang violence at all.

I think if the USA wants to have all these guns around then all citizens should have to do a tour of duty in the Army or militia.
This will allow them to have more respect for guns and learn how to use them properly.
This will also give them a view of a foreign enemy so they can forget about their perceived domestic enemies.

If you want a society with guns then everyone should be trained to respect and use them, not just some.

The fact is though, most of these killers are men.
Men tend to use force to solve their problems, our modern society has left men with little ways to solve their problems but with weapons. No one has respect for a strong man anymore and women scoff at the traditional man.
Children are trapped by a society that does not operate the way humans should.
We naturally want to go one way but society tells us that nature is wrong.

Get back to basics.

Switzerland fascinates me. Back in university, I did a term paper on it. Recently after the Oregon mall shooting. I googled an interesting article comparing US and Swiss gun control laws. Pretty much every Swiss male must serve in the army and are given guns when they are discharged from the main army. They also do reserve duty up to age 50, so they are constantly training and practicing weapons safety. In summary, the Swiss discipline around guns, which are plentiful and easy to obtain, is what keeps their society safe.

http://www.guncite.com/swissgun-kopel.html

[Shyla Wild]

How about this? What are Americans so afraid of to demand the rights to such weapons? Where do you draw the line? Why is it okay to own certain weapons and not others? 50 Caliber bullet can punch through an engine block and armour plating. Why stop at a 50 cal? Why not a tank? Or a Nuke? Plotter is right about the Swiss. The are one of the top five most armed nations in the world. Yet they do not have a violence in the last hundred years.

People lack empathy and do not understand the concept of taking a life. Ever seen a broken War Vet? There is someone that understands, and the violence is torn from him.

[wildman]

After Vietnam, the USA decided they would never again fight a war they can't win. Can't win the war on drugs, do symbolic gestures to calm population. Can't win against NRA, do nothing. The " greatest power on earth" is weak and getting weaker everyday. Soon, if not already, will lose the war on debt. If you haven't seen this, look up USdebtclock.org. A scary and informative page.
General population is clueless and CNN gets great ratings from an incomprehensible tragedy. This kind of craziness can and has happened elsewhere but the good old USA sure has cornered the market.

Sorry but I disagree. The entire country is ill. Re-read Crag's post...especially the section I bolded. The civilian population has no NEED for military grade weapons...FINAL. What the fuck is the regular Joe going to do with an M-16? If it was up to the NRA, the entire population would be armed, and it would be a warzone just like it is today. You want to know who needs these weapons? Drug dealers, gangs, etc. Basically the lowest form of life. You get a 9 year old doing drive-bys in the getto and you are going to try to sell me a story of mental illness? Fine...here is a good one for you. The USA leads the world in reported mental illness. But last time I checked we do not allow crazy people to have weapons. I don't think they allow M-16's in the mental ward. Yet they allow the craziest nation in the world to arm itself. VERY INTERESTING!



If people really want to know why I'm going off about guns...let me show you something.

This is Renata, a TS from Mexico that use to live in Montreal.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]53132[/ATTACH]

She got into a fight with another girl in Mexico and was told by the girl's bf to leave Mexico and given a week. Last week the time to leave expired and she was shot 5 times, twice in the face. There is nothing worse than seeing someone you know laying dead on a street during the evening news.

God rest her Soul

[Shyla Wild]

Another point to banning weapons and protecting the population, and something a little closer to home.

In Ontario, large amounts of Pitbull attacks prompted the Ontario Government to ban Pitbulls under the Dog Owner's Liability Act. Irresponsible Dog ownership led to the Government passing this law to protect it's population. Since then, Pitbull attacks have dropped to almost zero.

Re-read what I wrote and change the word pitbull and dog for gun.

[wantitss63]

How about this? What are Americans so afraid of to demand the rights to such weapons? Where do you draw the line? Why is it okay to own certain weapons and not others? 50 Caliber bullet can punch through an engine block and armour plating. Why stop at a 50 cal? Why not a tank? Or a Nuke? Plotter is right about the Swiss. The are one of the top five most armed nations in the world. Yet they do not have a violence in the last hundred years.

People lack empathy and do not understand the concept of taking a life. Ever seen a broken War Vet? There is someone that understands, and the violence is torn from him.

I hear you, Shyla - the value of life is totally lost. I was reading an article somewhere talking about a new form of stress they are seeing in a particular branch of the military: drone pilots. These guys live in normal surroundings in the US. They commute to work, sitting in an air-cinditioned trailer on a base in Nevada (or somewhere like that). They fly their drones, looking only at the TV transmissions from the aircraft. And they drop bombs and Hellfire missiles on 'targets'. Then they pack up and go home - another day at the office. It's not like older wars, where you literally stared your enemy in the eye as you killed him. For these guys/gals, it's a video game. It's the ultimate video game. I'm not passing judgement at all - if wars have to be fought (and that's a whole other issue), I'd rather the 'other side' does the dying. But the dislocation between pushing a button on a joystick and blowing the crap out of a mountain-top on the other side of the world cannot be healthy at all.

I think you've nailed it - only those who have seen the impact of this kind of violence can possibly understand.

Re: the US and the Swiss - Switzerland is (like all of western Europe) is a long-established, stable nation. The US was born in rebellion - they cherish that and celebrate it. Being a loner, maverick, trailblazer is something to admire in the States - in China, it'd eventually get you shot (I exaggerate....a bit...maybe). The US collectively hates the idea of being told what to do - and has empowered their citizens to make sure it never happens. Ironic that it has lead directly to the conditions we see south of the border today.

Well, I definitely need to go back to surfing tgirl pics..........

[wantitss63]

Another point to banning weapons and protecting the population, and something a little closer to home.

In Ontario, large amounts of Pitbull attacks prompted the Ontario Government to ban Pitbulls under the Dog Owner's Liability Act. Irresponsible Dog ownership led to the Government passing this law to protect it's population. Since then, Pitbull attacks have dropped to almost zero.

Re-read what I wrote and change the word pitbull and dog for gun.

This one is close to home for me too. You're right - OWNERSHIP is the issue - not the dogs themselves. Periodically, there have been calls here in AB to ban huskies in response to attacks. The last couple have clearly pointed to (stupid) human actions as being the trigger, but I pray that some do-gooder doesn't decide that the correct response is the knee-jerk one. Bad owners make bad dogs. Simple (kinda...).

Extend the reasoning to guns - yeah, it does hold water. The problem (in the US at least) would be getting the existing guns out of private hands.....

[Shyla Wild]

The problem (in the US at least) would be getting the existing guns out of private hands.....

The US last year spent 700 Billion or 19% of it's budget on defence. Take half of the money you spend arming yourself to disarm the civilian population. Problem solved.

Oh, and the argument that the US is born in War....Take a look at German history. I am against War...but I do understand it's propose. War jumpstarts economies. Hilter used war to rebuild Germany, and the US used the same war to recover from the depression. But war is fought by soldiers, not Postal Workers, or High School or Elementary school kids.

[wantitss63]

The US last year spent 700 Billion or 19% of it's budget on defence. Take half of the money you spend arming yourself to disarm the civilian population. Problem solved.

Oh, and the argument that the US is born in War....Take a look at German history. I am against War...but I do understand it's propose. War jumpstarts economies. Hilter used war to rebuild Germany, and the US used the same war to recover from the depression. But war is fought by soldiers, not Postal Workers, or High School or Elementary school kids.

Hmmm...much to ponder........

RE: the origins of the US - I think the nature of the War of Independence (and I honestly don't know much of the detailed history there) has lead to the enshrinement of the concept of rebellion against (the perception of) unjust rule in the national character, as well as in the constitution. Thus the right to bear arms.......and the current interpretation that means that this includes just about anything the army has.

It's a bit mind-bending to think that the central US government supports the right of the citizens of the US to act against.....the US government. i know there's more to it than that, but still.....

I think I'm at risk of getting on thin ice here - should probably do some research.....

[wantitss63]

I've been getting a little uncomfortable with my own line of reasoning over the last few posts, and I think I've figured out why: I have been looking at this issue from a 'big picture' perspective - history, national culture, geopolitics, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I re-read the thread and realised I was missing a hugely important (really, the most important) element: individual people. Like the poignant example you provided, Shyla. Victims who did nothing to deserve their fate.

What to do about it? God knows (and he appears to be busy....) - I don't think there are many down here who are willing/able to fix things.

[TheOtherEd]

The US last year spent 700 Billion or 19% of it's budget on defence. Take half of the money you spend arming yourself to disarm the civilian population. Problem solved.

I don't think 10% of the budget would even begin to play for the civil war it would cause.

Its a uninforceable order. Cops wouldn't do it, and commitus posse act mean is the feds tried to use the military, it would be a civil war that would be very very bad. States succeeding from the Union.

Now, if we dumped an 10% of the budget into making schools top rate, and providing meaningful planned parenthood advice that was more than a suggestion, and less of a badly taken joke, then your talking the talk I can see working.

[Shyla Wild]

I don't think 10% of the budget would even begin to play for the civil war it would cause.

Its a uninforceable order. Cops wouldn't do it, and commitus posse act mean is the feds tried to use the military, it would be a civil war that would be very very bad. States succeeding from the Union.

Now, if we dumped an 10% of the budget into making schools top rate, and providing meaningful planned parenthood advice that was more than a suggestion, and less of a badly taken joke, then your talking the talk I can see working.

Honestly, there is no one solution. As you point out, this would most likely start a civil war over gun ownership and this would be both ironic and tragic. Tragic as this war would be over ownership of guns, while the last was over ownership of slaves. Ironic as a anti-gun war would be fought....with guns.