Arson at Gay club in Seattle on New Years Eve - Hate Crime?

[Rockheart]

So on New Years Eve, just after midnight, someone poured gas on a carpeted stairway that led up to a packed Gay club.
They then started the carpet on fire and ran.
A tragedy was averted when patrons used the newly installed fire extinguishers to stop the fire.

This sounds like it is a horrible hate crime to try an kill everyone in a gay club, and on New Years too.

I guess other reasons could be a jealous lover or possibly someone who is gay that is having problems coming to terms?

Regardless this is a terrible thing.
Kind of reminds me of Goodhandy's with the stairs up to the club.
How easy would it be to get out of an upstairs club like this if the stairs are on fire?

http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/20...-investigated/
http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/20...-surveillance/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_4531451.html
http://www.advocate.com/politics/201...-new-years-day

[Guest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDkmnHNXD4M


Hate crime.

[Rockheart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDkmnHNXD4M


Hate crime.

What's your proof?

What if your boyfriend was up there with another guy and you were jealous?
This sort of thing happens all the time.
This is hate, but not a hate crime.

Possibly a hate crime but the if anyone does this at a gay club it will automatically be thought of as a hate crime.
How do you really know?
The hate crime thing would be perfect cover because people automatically think the worst like this.

Meanwhile nobodys is looking for the real culprit, because they are looking for a hate crime, always.

This is little different than every time a teen kills themselves now, it is ALWAYS bullying.
Just like any crime against a gay is ALWAYS a hate crime.
The truth is there is many other reasons, but we always have to think the worst of everyone.

I am always accused of being a hater by people that know damn well that I am not.
It is just a convenient excuse to blame everything on hate crimes.

You may hate someone but if you just hate them, this is not the same hate crime everyone talks of.
People hate people but it is not always intolerance or bullying, you might just hate someone, this is life not a crime.

Everyone these days want to blame all their problems on everyone else.
Everything is a hate crime or bullying, no matter what.

[Shyla Wild]

As someone studying Law, one of the first things we are taught about going to court is never to charge someone with crimes that will not stick. Proving a hate crime is VERY difficult without a full investigation into a person and their background.

If I were to try this case, I would bypass the hate crime. I have enough evidence with the other crimes that I would not need Hate crime and it's sentence in trial. Hate Crime is a Federal offence in the USA and carries a max penalty of 10 years. I would need more proof if I wanted to go this route in court. But I would not. I have this person on arson. Regular arson carries a penalty of 3-5 years. If you attempt to burn a building with someone inside this type of Arson is a Class A-1 felony and carries a penalty of 20 years to life. With 100 people in the club, that is 100 charges of Class A-1 Arson, and I would seek 2000 years in prison.

If I can charge a person with 100 counts of arson and get 2000 years, what difference would 10 years for hate make? Why waste my time? Does adding 10 years to this sentence matter? I think not.

[Rockheart]

As someone studying Law, one of the first things we are taught about going to court is never to charge someone with crimes that will not stick. Proving a hate crime is VERY difficult without a full investigation into a person and their background.

If I were to try this case, I would bypass the hate crime. I have enough evidence with the other crimes that I would not need Hate crime and it's sentence in trial. Hate Crime is a Federal offence in the USA and carries a max penalty of 10 years. I would need more proof if I wanted to go this route in court. But I would not. I have this person on arson. Regular arson carries a penalty of 3-5 years. If you attempt to burn a building with someone inside this type of Arson is a Class A-1 felony and carries a penalty of 20 years to life. With 100 people in the club, that is 100 charges of Class A-1 Arson, and I would seek 2000 years in prison.

If I can charge a person with 100 counts of arson and get 2000 years, what difference would 10 years for hate make? Why waste my time? Does adding 10 years to this sentence matter? I think not.

Exactly, if there is a crime, why does it always have to be a HATE crime.
Alot of crimes involve HATE but not the kind of HATE that makes it and official HATE crime.
Why does there have to be different law really, as you say.
If they break existing laws why does it have to be tagged as a "Hate Crime"

Sometimes people do mean stuff and there is laws for pretty much everything.
If it was a straight club nobody would say it was an angry gay committing a hate crime.
What if it was? Can a Gay not commit a hate crime?

Sometimes people commit suicide, why is it always someone else's fault now?

If you are gay and I punch you in the nose, everyone will say it is a hate crime.
What if the person is jerk and deserved a punch in the nose.
Maybe it is assault but never a hate crime.

[Shyla Wild]

Exactly, if there is a crime, why does it always have to be a HATE crime.
Alot of crimes involve HATE but not the kind of HATE that makes it and official HATE crime.
Why does there have to be different law really, as you say.
If they break existing laws why does it have to be tagged as a "Hate Crime"

Sometimes people do mean stuff and there is laws for pretty much everything.
If it was a straight club nobody would say it was an angry gay committing a hate crime.
What if it was? Can a Gay not commit a hate crime?

Sometimes people commit suicide, why is it always someone else's fault now?

If you are gay and I punch you in the nose, everyone will say it is a hate crime.
What if the person is jerk and deserved a punch in the nose.
Maybe it is assault but never a hate crime.

There are times when it truly is a hate crime. This may or may have been....but that is what causes the problem "Reasonable Doubt". The jury will allow you to walk. It's better to get the person on what you can.

But there are times when you must fight for the charge of hate crime. Take the case of Islan Nettles who was brought into public eye after Laverne Cox and Carmen Carrera put Katie Couric in her place. Nettles was beaten to death in NYC across the street from precinct 6 in Harlem. Paris Wilson was arrested and charged with a misdemeanor for assault. The charges were dropped. I see a serious problem here. Even if this is not a hate crime, this is manslaughter as someone died NOT assault. Someone dropped the ball here HARDCORE.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/parker...b_4309549.html

[Alexis]

Hate is everywhere..

There's haters everywhere and for everything.. I have my share..

I've been assaulted twice in what were specific instances of hate toward gay people..

I'm not gay.. I like pussy way to much to be considered gay..

The first time the 2 guys that attacked me got beat up pretty bad and they were left laying in the street half a block apart with multiple injuries..

It was never reported..

The second time was 6 guys specifically out gay bashing.. in the heart of the gay district of Vancouver..

2 of them went to hospital, one didn't need to.. the others ran away.. I ended up with a couple bruised ribs, a bit of a black eye and a fat lip..

This was before the term "Hate Crime" carried a separate penalty.. I know 4 of them ended up being charged with assault..

If I was someone that was unable to defend myself I would have surely died or been left invalid..

Hate crimes need to be brought to attention to help get the normal people to hate the haters..

The only people that should be hated are those that commit violent crimes or crimes (not just legal ones) that hurt society by segregation..

Edit to ad this.. The person shouldn't be hated.. what lead them to hate is what should be hated..

[Rockheart]

There are times when it truly is a hate crime. This may or may have been....but that is what causes the problem "Reasonable Doubt". The jury will allow you to walk. It's better to get the person on what you can.

But there are times when you must fight for the charge of hate crime. Take the case of Islan Nettles who was brought into public eye after Laverne Cox and Carmen Carrera put Katie Couric in her place. Nettles was beaten to death in NYC across the street from precinct 6 in Harlem. Paris Wilson was arrested and charged with a misdemeanor for assault. The charges were dropped. I see a serious problem here. Even if this is not a hate crime, this is manslaughter as someone died NOT assault. Someone dropped the ball here HARDCORE.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/parker...b_4309549.html

I think every beating is a hate crime.
You hate gays and beat them, you hate some guy in a bar, it's all hate.
If a white beats up a white guy for no reason and the guy is not gay or muslim or anything else, then why is it not a hate crime?
If two gays fight on Church st. it should be double hate crime, not?
It will be assault possibly always tho.

I think the whole hate crime thing over shadows reality often.
It also muddles straight forward investigations.

As you say, why not charge them with the offense that is clear and probably successful.
Instead we always have to go for the hate crime first now days, even if it isn't.
Then they usually cannot be tried again for the same crime if found innocent for a hate crime.

We are making things to complicated that now we weigh everything against being a hate crime, or is it bullying, finally is it assault? They were autistic now it's worse etc. etc..
It is all hate all the time, how can we pick and choose?

I think this might be a good topic for a legal thesis or something.

[Rockheart]

There's haters everywhere and for everything.. I have my share..

I've been assaulted twice in what were specific instances of hate toward gay people..

I'm not gay.. I like pussy way to much to be considered gay..

The first time the 2 guys that attacked me got beat up pretty bad and they were left laying in the street half a block apart with multiple injuries..

It was never reported..

The second time was 6 guys specifically out gay bashing.. in the heart of the gay district of Vancouver..

2 of them went to hospital, one didn't need to.. the others ran away.. I ended up with a couple bruised ribs, a bit of a black eye and a fat lip..

This was before the term "Hate Crime" carried a separate penalty.. I know 4 of them ended up being charged with assault..

If I was someone that was unable to defend myself I would have surely died or been left invalid..

Hate crimes need to be brought to attention to help get the normal people to hate the haters..

The only people that should be hated are those that commit violent crimes or crimes (not just legal ones) that hurt society by segregation..

Edit to ad this.. The person shouldn't be hated.. what lead them to hate is what should be hated..

I've been beat up a couple times cause people didn't like the way I looked.
Like you I at least inflicted maximum damage, although it is tough against a group.
As I am tall, shorter drunk guys often seem to wanna fight me for no reason, saying things like "you're not so big".
I never said I was...

Good to see someone was charged with assault in one of the cases.
The best is still to weigh the charge of hate (if it exists) against assault.
Prosecutors need to not be swayed by popular opinion and still try to pursue the charge that will stick.
Otherwise people may get off completely when they could have been found guilty of a lower charge.
I suppose if the judge has the power to adjust the charge it may help.

[Shyla Wild]

I think every beating is a hate crime.
You hate gays and beat them, you hate some guy in a bar, it's all hate.
If a white beats up a white guy for no reason and the guy is not gay or muslim or anything else, then why is it not a hate crime?
If two gays fight on Church st. it should be double hate crime, not?
It will be assault possibly always tho.

I think the whole hate crime thing over shadows reality often.
It also muddles straight forward investigations.

As you say, why not charge them with the offense that is clear and probably successful.
Instead we always have to go for the hate crime first now days, even if it isn't.
Then they usually cannot be tried again for the same crime if found innocent for a hate crime.

We are making things to complicated that now we weigh everything against being a hate crime, or is it bullying, finally is it assault? They were autistic now it's worse etc. etc..
It is all hate all the time, how can we pick and choose?

I think this might be a good topic for a legal thesis or something.

Crag you forget the real reason behind law. One of the important factors in a Law case is motive. Without motive, we cannot truly understand why the crime was committed. As such, without knowing the why, we cannot bring someone to justice for what they truly did. This is the base for Law and Justice. Killing someone in Canada can result in Murder charges 1st(25 years), 2nd(10-25 years), Manslaughter (varies-25 years). That is reason is the reason "The Why" is important.

People always want to know why you did it.

[Rockheart]

Crag you forget the real reason behind law. One of the important factors in a Law case is motive. Without motive, we cannot truly understand why the crime was committed. As such, without knowing the why, we cannot bring someone to justice for what they truly did. This is the base for Law and Justice. Killing someone in Canada can result in Murder charges 1st(25 years), 2nd(10-25 years), Manslaughter (varies-25 years). That is reason is the reason "The Why" is important.

People always want to know why you did it.

No but why is it worse that I beat you up for being gay, for example,
or if I beat you up for being a Montreal Canadiens fan?

If I hate you because you are a Canadiens fan just I like a hate all Montreal fans , why is it not a hate crime?
If I hate that you are gay, it is no different to me, I hate you.

So haters of Gays can be hate crimes, but haters of Montreal fans not?

Yes, Hate can be a motive but that is just to prove WHY the person did it.
The Degrees of murder are more related to whether you planned it or not.
Planned is usually first degree, and ad hoc killings usually second degree.
To be first degree i have to plan to kill that individual person in advance.
Second degree is where you kill anyone at a moments notice.
If it was accidental with negligence it is usually manslaughter.

If you are judged for hate in this situation it would just be added on top of the usual penalty.
What I am saying is how can we only say some crimes against some people are hate crimes,
when all are hate crimes.

Why is is more despicable to beat a gay, than to beat up a Montreal Canadiens fan?
It is not, to me it is exactly the same.
You could say that he was asking for it but if you say that about your wife you would be in huge trouble.

I think the justice system is being sidetracked and poisoned by all these misconceptions.
It should be about the rights of the person and not that they are more hated or more hard done by because the are deemed as some social pariah.
To me this is unfair to all people and means people are getting treated differently for hate crimes based on who they committed it on. This should not be a factor.

If someone beats me up because I am gay but I am too scared to come out of the closet then they get a lower penalty, why should this happen?
All assault should be assault and murder should be murder, it should vary by who you beat up or killed.
Although I do understand in the situation of killing or assaulting law enforcement officers, this should be the highest crime.

This is all leading to an unjust society.

[Shyla Wild]

No but why is it worse that I beat you up for being gay, for example,
or if I beat you up for being a Montreal Canadiens fan?

If I hate you because you are a Canadiens fan just I like a hate all Montreal fans , why is it not a hate crime?
If I hate that you are gay, it is no different to me, I hate you.

So haters of Gays can be hate crimes, but haters of Montreal fans not?

Yes, Hate can be a motive but that is just to prove WHY the person did it.
The Degrees of murder are more related to whether you planned it or not.
Planned is usually first degree, and ad hoc killings usually second degree.
To be first degree i have to plan to kill that individual person in advance.
Second degree is where you kill anyone at a moments notice.
If it was accidental with negligence it is usually manslaughter.

If you are judged for hate in this situation it would just be added on top of the usual penalty.
What I am saying is how can we only say some crimes against some people are hate crimes,
when all are hate crimes.

Why is is more despicable to beat a gay, than to beat up a Montreal Canadiens fan?
It is not, to me it is exactly the same.
You could say that he was asking for it but if you say that about your wife you would be in huge trouble.

I think the justice system is being sidetracked and poisoned by all these misconceptions.
It should be about the rights of the person and not that they are more hated or more hard done by because the are deemed as some social pariah.
To me this is unfair to all people and means people are getting treated differently for hate crimes based on who they committed it on. This should not be a factor.

If someone beats me up because I am gay but I am too scared to come out of the closet then they get a lower penalty, why should this happen?
All assault should be assault and murder should be murder, it should vary by who you beat up or killed.
Although I do understand in the situation of killing or assaulting law enforcement officers, this should be the highest crime.

This is all leading to an unjust society.

Murder is much more complicated than that. There is many reasons for a murder 1 charge, and a murder 2 charge. Manslaughter is much more complicated than being an accident, hence why the sentence varies. If fact, manslaughter carries a higher sentence than murder 2 here at 25 years.

Here is the thing. You are defining hate as "dislike". But Hate definition roots back to genocide. If you look at sections 318 and 319 of the criminal code which are mods to freedom of speech you will notice a trend:

Section 318
it is a criminal act to "advocate or promote genocide" — to call for, support, encourage or argue for the killing of members of a group based on colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.

Section 319
It is illegal to communicate hatred in a public place by telephone, broadcast or through other audio or visual means. The same section protects people from being charged with a hate crime if their statements are truthful or the expression of a religious opinion.

You are right. Hate charges are laid on top of regular charges. The criminal code is written in way that it protects people from hate based on colour, race, religion, ethnic origin and/or sexual orientation. It was written in this way to prevent a genocide of a specific group. Basically, if you go on a killing spree make sure you kill a bunch of different people. Don't discriminate...and don't kill Habs fans.

As a future lawyer, you try to get the most out of sentencing. Sometimes its a bargaining chip. But you only bring charges that you know can stick. Remember Silvia Boots? She killed one girl by accident and fired a gun twice. In the struggle with the first girl, when the weapon went off it burnt the girl. Assault. The fire bullet hitting the friend. Assault with a Deadly Weapon. The Bullet that Killed her. Murder 2.

Total: 45 years.

[xoxJanexox]

In any modern society, minority groups are protected by different means. It is no secret that gay men on average tend to be bullied more compared to non gay men.

Could this protection of the minority groups be abused? The simple answer is Yes, the same as the social welfare system could be and is abused on a daily basis. But, on the balance it seems to be a better option.

[Rockheart]

Murder is much more complicated than that. There is many reasons for a murder 1 charge, and a murder 2 charge. Manslaughter is much more complicated than being an accident, hence why the sentence varies. If fact, manslaughter carries a higher sentence than murder 2 here at 25 years.

Here is the thing. You are defining hate as "dislike". But Hate definition roots back to genocide. If you look at sections 318 and 319 of the criminal code which are mods to freedom of speech you will notice a trend:

Section 318
it is a criminal act to "advocate or promote genocide" ? to call for, support, encourage or argue for the killing of members of a group based on colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.

Section 319
It is illegal to communicate hatred in a public place by telephone, broadcast or through other audio or visual means. The same section protects people from being charged with a hate crime if their statements are truthful or the expression of a religious opinion.

You are right. Hate charges are laid on top of regular charges. The criminal code is written in way that it protects people from hate based on colour, race, religion, ethnic origin and/or sexual orientation. It was written in this way to prevent a genocide of a specific group. Basically, if you go on a killing spree make sure you kill a bunch of different people. Don't discriminate...and don't kill Habs fans.

As a future lawyer, you try to get the most out of sentencing. Sometimes its a bargaining chip. But you only bring charges that you know can stick. Remember Silvia Boots? She killed one girl by accident and fired a gun twice. In the struggle with the first girl, when the weapon went off it burnt the girl. Assault. The fire bullet hitting the friend. Assault with a Deadly Weapon. The Bullet that Killed her. Murder 2.

Total: 45 years.

No you are talking the reason it happened.
Which is different than the degrees of murder.

Plain and simple first degree murder is as I said.
IT HAS TO BE PREMEDITATED, if it is not it is NEVER first degree
It has zero to do with level of hate at all, that is sentencing.
It can be first degree murder and also called a hate crime but then it may be a higher sentence.
First degree murder is first degree murder, no matter the subject of the murder.

That is not my point anyway.
I am not arguing what the murder law is I am arguing that hate crimes only charged when certain groups is not fair.
It should just be a crime is a crime.

If someone commits hate against you the punishment should be the same if you are Gay, straight, or racially different.
It should not matter, HATE is HATE PERIOD.

It is not fair at all that someone would be punished differently no matter who you hate against.
Our society is fucked up this way.
Special interest groups are fucking up the fairness of the law.

Commit murder, go to jail for 25 years.
Why does it matter if the person is gay or straight or anything.
You fucking killed them, how much more hateful can you get?

The law is fucking retarded.

[Rockheart]

In any modern society, minority groups are protected by different means. It is no secret that gay men on average tend to be bullied more compared to non gay men.

Could this protection of the minority groups be abused? The simple answer is Yes, the same as the social welfare system could be and is abused on a daily basis. But, on the balance it seems to be a better option.

That has nothing to do with anything.

There should not be laws that protect one group more than another.
You say gays get beat up more, but you don't really know.
Why does it really matter?

If I get beat up why is it less worse that if you get beat up, for example.
It is not.

One person shouldn't be punished more because you may have had a harder life that me.
This should have nothing to do with nothing.

Hate crime laws are a sham.
Sure i mean stopping genocide is one thing, but fairness is another.

The fact that my murder may get punished less than someone in another social situation is just plain wrong.

I am human like everyone else.
People should be charged with violating a human, not a gay or some other group.