Update on Anti-Prostitution Laws

[toban]

Oh, oh, those damned Albertans are at it again !

I'm just speculating here. Edmonton is leading the way in changing their bylaws. The city wants to clamp down even more on the industry. Here is a link to an article I found:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Ed...332/story.html . . . . . . . . . Sunshine

That story seems like just another example of the old "dejavu all over again" thing doesn't it? Didn't the same sort of regulation/license issue occur in Toronto in the not too distant past yet there is still a plethora of body-rubs, in-calls and brothels advertising openly now?

I agree Sunshine, that the "cure" to this religio-political nonsense is definitely not going to be found any time soon (definitely not in my lifetime), but perhaps the fact that most of the mainstream "churches" are in freefall and near collapse, might lend some assistance to it's occurance but unfortunately some of the emergent pentecostal/apostolic type groups can be even more fanatical about some of these issues than the old mainline churches were.

[toban]

. . . . . YES OF COURSE, NEITHER the provider of a sexual service or the client should be prosecuted but I THINK YOU MISUNDERSTOOD what I meant. Its in regards to a possible law that when a man is caught paying for sex the law makers only want to criminalise and fine that man and hold him responsible but will still legally allow a woman to sell sex and will NOT criminalise her. THAT IS HYPOCRISY AND UNFAIRNESS within the law and its only aim is to condemn and go after the men(clients) which is an extreme evil and also so the government/law makers can get a cut in the sales and law makers should not be allowed to make this into law. I'm only indicating in reality a woman selling sex is more of a guilty party in this matter than a man because shes the one selling and providing the product so to speak which is her body to many men. BUT IM NOT AT ALL against prostitution or a woman or shemale selling sex and the client buying it, IM ALL FOR IT and no one should be arrested, im just indicating that if this ever became law its aim is only to go after the men when THE LAW SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT RIGHT WHATSOEVER to arrest anyone including the women or shemales of course because prostitution is LEGAL in Canada.

If its legal to sell sex than it should be legal to buy it without arresting the man(client) or there would be hypocrisy within the law. Hypocrisy should not be allowed in the law EVER. If its legal to sell sex then it must be legal to buy it or law makers would be hypocrites.
. . . . . . . .

OK, domr I think I understand what you were saying and I agree with you in at least one context since I happen to have been one of those men victimized by being arrested and charged with a criminal offense, all because of my recklessness in speaking to a very attractive, young policewoman posing as a sex-worker on a public sidewalk in Winnipeg !

[bleh123]

Some food for thought:

If they set it up so all the junkies could go to a clinic and get high safely for free, there would be no new junkies created. People get into hard drugs because the people already addicted push them on them to get them hooked and throwing money at it so they can exploit them. If all the junkies suddenly started going to the clinics, the black market would disappear over night, and there would be no need for current junkies to try and recruit other people. In one generation the hard drug usage would be gone from society. The existing junkies would just go to the clinic and get fucked up, until the interventionists there convince them to get off it or they die. I imagine when you can get all the free drugs you want the objectivity of that lifestyle would be gone and suddenly seem extremely stupid to the people living it. And instead of pushing the shit on new young people so they can get them involved and rip them off etc, they would probably just warn them against following their example. The application process would not be simple either. Who is honestly going to go to a clinic and go through multiple interviews where people try to talk them out of it, giving them a tour and introducing them to the people currently in the program, filling out tons of paper work etc, just to start shooting heroin? With this system in place do to shear economics the clinic would end up being the only place you can get heroin, so they'd have to go through this process to start. It's actually the best solution to end the heroin problem.

[Shyla Wild]

In the end, let's tell the truth here. Prostitution is not legal for 1 simple reason. The government cannot regulate it, therefore the government does not get it's cut. Let's be honest, the government would have to trust the girl/guy to report their income. Since escorts do not have the highest creditability to start I could see some shady dealing here. It's the same for drugs. Cigarettes are legal...they kill. Same for alcohol. We are all adults in a free country. Somewhere along the line we stopped thinking and let the government regulate everything for us. Were we not taught right from wrong?

My 2 cents: Darwin's theory on survival of the fittest. The strongest of the species survive. For eample: If you don't wear your seatbelt and go threw the windshield...I am sorry you are stupid. Why should nature protect you? Why do we need laws for seatbelts? Simple: Insurance companies got sick of paying out families for these accidents and pushed for government regulation. Think people!!!!

And for these reasons Crag is right. Why should I have to pay because you fucked up? That is his way of thinking, and I back that 100%.

[Rockheart]

In the end, let's tell the truth here. Prostitution is not legal for 1 simple reason. The government cannot regulate it, therefore the government does not get it's cut. Let's be honest, the government would have to trust the girl/guy to report their income. Since escorts do not have the highest creditability to start I could see some shady dealing here. It's the same for drugs. Cigarettes are legal...they kill. Same for alcohol. We are all adults in a free country. Somewhere along the line we stopped thinking and let the government regulate everything for us. Were we not taught right from wrong?

My 2 cents: Darwin's theory on survival of the fittest. The strongest of the species survive. For eample: If you don't wear your seatbelt and go threw the windshield...I am sorry you are stupid. Why should nature protect you? Why do we need laws for seatbelts? Simple: Insurance companies got sick of paying out families for these accidents and pushed for government regulation. Think people!!!!

And for these reasons Crag is right. Why should I have to pay because you fucked up? That is his way of thinking, and I back that 100%.

If they can spend money on this safe injection sites, they could spend that money really helping these people.
Crack down on the hard drugs and leave pot alone, there will be a much better result.
Drugs are not necessary to society however sex is and prostitution has a whole other side to it, SEX.

Truly prostitution is not legal because no one wants to admit it is ok to pay for sex.
I don't blame them because in many ways I do not think it is fair to monetize something that naturally free.

You may say that people always pay for sex in one way or another, but that is not always the case.
When an unnatural thing such as money takes the place of a natural thing like sex, it bothers me.

Easy and cheap access to prostitution means people will spend less time seeking meanful relationships where they procreate and have a family and more time just having sex for no reason.
It also means once it becomes an acceptable career to everyone and our children are taught money is number one, that is first step to the end of our species.
If most women decide to become escorts to make better money and don't have families, I think this is a problem.
As it is, I think too many women these days are choosing careers over motherhood.
Careers are just something made up by society, striving for something unnatural like this for you life is a little warped in my opinion.
Furthering yourself for the sake of money means you die alone and leave no real living legacy.

The other problem with prostitution is it's a young persons game.
To cultivate a society of sex workers means alot of broke unemployed older people with no real skill.
(Sex is not really a skill, everyone can do it fairly well)

Womens groups are against prostitution for many reasons, but this is one.
Legalized prostittution somewhat devalues and bastardizes the true meaning of sex and motherhood.
Will this lead to women charging to be mothers?
Maybe a bonus if they have a boy?
What type of society will that be, pretty shallow.

This in itself is degrading to many women, and they have a point.
Those lobbying for sex workers don't really recognize this.

Sex is used as a commodity but was never meant to be one.

Other societies in the past that valued sex and pleasure over family and procreation ceased to exist.

It only makes sense.

[Shyla Wild]

Easy and cheap access to prostitution means people will spend less time seeking meanful relationships where they procreate and have a family and more time just having sex for no reason.
It also means once it becomes an acceptable career to everyone and our children are taught money is number one, that is first step to the end of our species.
If most women decide to become escorts to make better money and don't have families, I think this is a problem.

Womens groups are against prostitution for many reasons, but this is one.
Legalized prostittution somewhat devalues and bastardizes the true meaning of sex and motherhood.
Will this lead to women charging to be mothers?
Maybe a bonus if they have a boy?
What type of society will that be, pretty shallow.

This in itself is degrading to many women, and they have a point.
Those lobbying for sex workers don't really recognize this.

Sex is used as a commodity but was never meant to be one.

Other societies in the past that valued sex and pleasure over family and procreation ceased to exist.

It only makes sense.

Wow....Did this happen when Larry Flint won his case? How about when Vivid Entertainment began sign girls to contracts? Did women everywhere run to become pornstars? No. The arguments you make are assumptions. There are plenty of professions in this world that are avoided and frowned upon, but yet are still legal. Garbage men, janitors, sewage cleaners,

[Rockheart]

Wow....Did this happen when Larry Flint won his case? How about when Vivid Entertainment began sign girls to contracts? Did women everywhere run to become pornstars? No. The arguments you make are assumptions. There are plenty of professions in this world that are avoided and frowned upon, but yet are still legal. Garbage men, janitors, sewage cleaners,

Yes, making porn legal has had an effect on the birth rate no matter how small.
Thank god for teenage pregnancy and slutty girls.

Truly increased access to porn has caused men to be more introverted and accustomed to paying for sex.
Men should be able to go out and seek sex for free, but we are developing a society that has turned sex into a commodity wholesale. Thus more and more people in the future will go into sex work. Less and less people will have children.
There is no two ways about it.

I am knee deep in it and I know many of my personal issues in life are due to porn.
Escorts are not really an issue with me, but look at who I hang around with alot.

Now I have no prospects for a family or a meaningful reltionship anymore, it passed by me while I was monetizing sex.

These are reasons our western society will eventually fail and Chinese will take over by attrition.
Our birth rate will continue to decline because of our hedonism and need for pleasure over struggle.

What do you think happened to the Romans?

[Rockheart]

I should add,
if western society beats the curve and becomes so efficient that we no long need money to live,
prostitution will not be a viable profession as there will be no professions, only interests and endeavours.

If we can provide food and energy at virtually no cost people can make whatever they want or need.
Money won't be necessary and sex will be a completely free pursuit.
There won't be many things to use as commodities if you can make whatever you like.

It won't be long before everyone can make diamonds and gold, then what?
Everyone will live 300 years and have a huge penis.
Who will you sell sex to?

[Shyla Wild]

Yes, making porn legal has had an effect on the birth rate no matter how small.
Thank god for teenage pregnancy and slutty girls.

Truly increased access to porn has caused men to be more introverted and accustomed to paying for sex.
Men should be able to go out and seek sex for free, but we are developing a society that has turned sex into a commodity wholesale. Thus more and more people in the future will go into sex work. Less and less people will have children.
There is no two ways about it.

I am knee deep in it and I know many of my personal issues in life are due to porn.
Escorts are not really an issue with me, but look at who I hang around with alot.

Now I have no prospects for a family or a meaningful reltionship anymore, it passed by me while I was monetizing sex.

These are reasons our western society will eventually fail and Chinese will take over by attrition.
Our birth rate will continue to decline because of our hedonism and need for pleasure over struggle.

What do you think happened to the Romans?

The Roman Empire fell due to many factors.

1- The military advantage came to an end when Germania developed the horseshoe in 200 BC
2- Disease and plagues including Antonine Plague, first appearance of the smallpox and measles 167BC.
3- Environmental degradation: Deforestation and excessive grazing led to erosion of meadows and cropland.
4- Years of warring within the Empire took it's toll.

Number 2 wiped out half the population of the Roman Empire. Measles is extremely dangerous to pregnant women. The Fall of the Roman Empire in the end is a Theory. No one knows what truly happened. But I would bet that disease, wars within and the end of a technology advantage; would be a better choice then moral decay. Empires don't fall because of one reason. They fall when multiple things happen too quickly.

I should add,
if western society beats the curve and becomes so efficient that we no long need money to live,
prostitution will not be a viable profession as there will be no professions, only interests and endeavours.

If we can provide food and energy at virtually no cost people can make whatever they want or need.
Money won't be necessary and sex will be a completely free pursuit.
There won't be many things to use as commodities if you can make whatever you like.

It won't be long before everyone can make diamonds and gold, then what?
Everyone will live 300 years and have a huge penis.
Who will you sell sex to?

I saw this World once when I was young in high school and on acid. It does not exist and will not exist in our lifetimes. People will always judge beauty. There are always points to sell. Natural or modified? Look just today. Need an example? Breast Implants. You can get just about anything you want. Just because we can go FFF doesn't mean we do. I don't see every girl with implants with bowling balls on her chest. If we are not that long away from a world where people live 300 years and have huge cocks, why are there still messed up cosmetic surgeries? Why are people still dying from cancer?

Humans have been bartering for ages. It's how we trade. Maybe Gold and Diamonds will lose their value, but we will give value to something else.

Prostitution is the oldest profession for a reason. It survived the fall of the Roman Empire, the empires before and after it for a reason. It has survived different bartering systems and the model works in multiple locations and time periods.

[Rockheart]

The Roman Empire fell due to many factors.

1- The military advantage came to an end when Germania developed the horseshoe in 200 BC
2- Disease and plagues including Antonine Plague, first appearance of the smallpox and measles 167BC.
3- Environmental degradation: Deforestation and excessive grazing led to erosion of meadows and cropland.
4- Years of warring within the Empire took it's toll.

Number 2 wiped out half the population of the Roman Empire. Measles is extremely dangerous to pregnant women. The Fall of the Roman Empire in the end is a Theory. No one knows what truly happened. But I would bet that disease, wars within and the end of a technology advantage; would be a better choice then moral decay. Empires don't fall because of one reason. They fall when multiple things happen too quickly.




I saw this World once when I was young in high school and on acid. It does not exist and will not exist in our lifetimes. People will always judge beauty. There are always points to sell. Natural or modified? Look just today. Need an example? Breast Implants. You can get just about anything you want. Just because we can go FFF doesn't mean we do. I don't see every girl with implants with bowling balls on her chest.

Humans have been bartering for ages. It's how we trade. Maybe Gold and Diamonds will lose their value, but we will give value to something else.

Prostitution is the oldest profession for a reason. It survived the fall of the Roman Empire, the empires before and after it for a reason. It has survived different bartering systems and the model works in multiple locations and time periods.

You just described the United States of America.
Replace the plague with Aids, drug addiction, cancer or whatever.
The north american plains only have about 50 years of fertile farming left before erosion leaves them desertified.

And you didn't mention the extreme Hedonism that also led to Romes demise.
Battles were neglected, fortunes wasted.
Obviously they should have developed horseshoes first, they had the most resources,
but their best thinkers were probably off at an orgy.

Stuff not costing anything is not drug induced fantasy.
It is economic fact and theory.
Read Keynes or Wealth of Nations, they all speculate on this sort of future.
As do most Economists.
Economies of scale means if commodities cost nothing and production is free, products will cost nothing.

Soon power will be generated for free and food will cost nothing.
Science will be able to make anything, what will you barter with?
It may take 50 years or it may take 200 years but it will happen.
(If we survive.)

We will breed ourselves to be all good looking and have big tits whatever suits our fancy.
People most likely don't run out and get fake tits because it is unnatural.
The way science is going we will all be perfect specimens and live for hundreds of years, if not forever.

Once again this is if we don't all self destruct first.

[Shyla Wild]

You just described the United States of America.
Replace the plague with Aids, drug addiction, cancer or whatever.
The north american plains only have about 50 years of fertile farming left before erosion leaves them desertified.

And you didn't mention the extreme Hedonism that also led to Romes demise.
Battles were neglected, fortunes wasted.
Obviously they should have developed horseshoes first, they had the most resources,
but their best thinkers were probably off at an orgy.

Stuff not costing anything is not drug induced fantasy.
It is economic fact and theory.
Read Keynes or Wealth of Nations, they all speculate on this sort of future.
As do most Economists.
Economies of scale means if commodities cost nothing and production is free, products will cost nothing.

Soon power will be generated for free and food will cost nothing.
Science will be able to make anything, what will you barter with?
It may take 50 years or it may take 200 years but it will happen.
(If we survive.)

We will breed ourselves to be all good looking and have big tits whatever suits our fancy.
People most likely don't run out and get fake tits because it is unnatural.
The way science is going we will all be perfect specimens and live for hundreds of years, if not forever.

Once again this is if we don't all self destruct first.

Power is generated for free. It's called Hydro, Solar and wind power. And with the rising prices for food I really don't see food becoming free anytime soon. These theories that everything would be free are exactly that.... theories. No different that gobal warming and Ice Age theories.

You state that sex should be free. I say water should be free as it falls from the sky. Yet I walk into any store and they are selling bottled water.

For our species to breed the perfect species many things would have to happen, like filtering out genetic disease. We have yet to create the male chromosone for reproduction, yet you speak of a perfect species. We are much further away from this utopia then you think.

And once again, even if the Empire of the United States falls; it's not like they are the only country in the world with prostitutes. Others will rise. Also remember that the US is the country with the most conservative views of sex. Europeans are much more sexual then Americans, yet I do not see this moral decay in Europe.

[Rockheart]

Power is generated for free. It's called Hydro, Solar and wind power. And with the rising prices for food I really don't see food becoming free anytime soon. These theories that everything would be free are exactly that.... theories. No different that gobal warming and Ice Age theories.

You state that sex should be free. I say water should be free as it falls from the sky. Yet I walk into any store and they are selling bottled water.

For our species to breed the perfect species many things would have to happen, like filtering out genetic disease. We have yet to create the male chromosone for reproduction, yet you speak of a perfect species. We are much further away from this utopia then you think.

And once again, even if the Empire of the United States falls; it's not like they are the only country in the world with prostitutes. Others will rise. Also remember that the US is the country with the most conservative views of sex. Europeans are much more sexual then Americans, yet I do not see this moral decay in Europe.

Nothing is produced for free because there is still costs involved. Solar and wind power are not free, it takes money to run them. Food is only getting more expensive because of inconsistencies in supply around the world. Everyone knows there is more than enough food in the world it just isn't distributed right. The food supply is fixing itself as we speak.

As science improves productions and delivery costs will eventually drop to zero.
As automation improves production costs will eventually drop to zero.
Disease will eventually be cured and wiped out, there is no two ways about it.

Just think about The Sun, it heats, lights and powers the entire earth for free.
Once we create or harness something like the sun we will have free energy, it is not hard to see.
The sun requires not fuel or maintenance and runs for millions of years, for free.

I am not saying prostitution is the cause, I am saying monetization of sex by everyone is a partial cause.
Porn and legal prostitution, plus the demise of the mother role in society.
When I say Western Culture, I mean all of Europe and everywhere influenced by Western Culture.
The USA is just our leader, they are hearth of Western Culture.

The fact that we think sex is supposed to be paid for will push our birth rate lower and lower.
We don't stand a chance against China is this way and will eventually lose.

We are a vain species and cosmetic surgery and genetic breeding will become common place.
You know it's true, just go to Thailand and you will see fast food plastic surgery which EVERYONE does there.

No offense to anyone, but prostitution and porn should be a last resort for people, not a viable profession.
I am involved in it but I am damaged, as I said before.
Garbage men and other people you look down on are usually unionized and make over $25 an hour.

In our culture sex=money and this is wrong, it will lead to our end.
Sex is not supposed to be a commodity, that is all some poor people have for free.
I am guilty of this and we all are.

[Shyla Wild]

Nothing is produced for free because there is still costs involved.
As science improves productions and delivery costs will eventually drop to zero.
As automation improves production costs will eventually drop to zero.

If nothing is produced for free, how can costs be reduced to zero? It cannot. There will always be costs.

The fact that we think sex is supposed to be paid for will push our birth rate lower and lower.
We don't stand a chance against China is this way and will eventually lose.

But Crag, there is prostitution in China. I don't understand how the chinese model can be used. Maybe our Capitalist ideal will fall, but prostitution will survive. Your chinese model is proof of that as the communist government attempted in 1949 to abolish prostitution. It returned in the 80s.

No offense to anyone, but prostitution and porn should be a last resort for people, not a viable profession.
I am involved in it but I am damaged, as I said before.
Garbage men and other people you look down on are usually unionized and make over $25 an hour.

I completely agree that the sex trade should be a last resort. But saying that garbage men have respect because they are unionized and make 25$ is a little bit of a reach. They earn that money because they do the jobs no one wants to do. Most escorts I know make 200$ an hour, make their own schedules etc... But at the end of the day, a garbage man is still a garbage man, and an escort is still an escort.

[Shyla Wild]

And I will add that prostitution is legal and regulated in Germany, Australia, and the Netherlands.

There are many problems that come with prostitution.

a) sexual harassment
b) rape
c) battering
d) verbal abuse
e) domestic violence
f) a racist practice
g) a violation of human rights
h) childhood sexual abuse
i) a consequence of male domination of women
a means of maintaining male domination of women
k) human trafficing
l) substance abuse
m) unsafe working conditions

I`m not saying that there are no problems that come with prostitution but to say society will come to an end because it will become worldwide debauchery, is also a bit of a reach

[Rockheart]

If nothing is produced for free, how can costs be reduced to zero? It cannot. There will always be costs.

But Crag, there is prostitution in China. I don't understand how the chinese model can be used. Maybe our Capitalist ideal will fall, but prostitution will survive. Your chinese model is proof of that as the communist government attempted in 1949 to abolish prostitution. It returned in the 80s.

I completely agree that the sex trade should be a last resort. But saying that garbage men have respect because they are unionized and make 25$ is a little bit of a reach. They earn that money because they do the jobs no one wants to do. Most escorts I know make 200$ an hour, make their own schedules etc... But at the end of the day, a garbage man is still a garbage man, and an escort is still an escort.

Today we cannot see how goods can be produced for free.
In future manufacturing will become efficient with robots and other means.
Like I said once we harness free sources of power, like the sun, it won't cost anything to produce thing.
Power is one of the key costs in manufacturing and distribution.
Things like molecular replicators will become common place allowing private people to make anything they want for free.

There is prostitution in almost every society however prostitiution and porn will never take hold legally in China.
Also most people in China don't have money for prostitutes, this is a middle - upper class phenomenon.
So you won't see much prostitution outside major centers in China, they are poor and all have arranged marriages.
Prostitutes in China risk a lifetime in prison also.

Take country in poverty like ethopia or somalia.
There isn't much prostitution becaue nobody has any money.
Truly the people have no money or food, the only thing they have is each other and free sex.
It provides comfort and satisfaction where there is very little, it needs to be free.
Start making these people pay for a simple free pleasure, what is there to live for?
We in Canada are too well off, we have a very distorted view of sex, almost perverted.

I believe some people are born Gay but I also believe that a large number of people "Coming out" are doing so for mainly sexual reasons. The Gay community is highly sex based and it is very attractive to some.
This also has a serious effect on the birth rate, people are choosing frequent sex over a family and relationship.

I didn't say garbagemen had respect because of their wage, I said it was a viable profession.
You referred to it as a dead end, last resort job, it is not.

Prostitutes charge more because they may only work one hour some days, so they have to cover their costs.
However if you were working 8 hours a day, $200 is too much for the economy to bear because there will be other options.
If you legalize prostitution, you will be making $25 an hour too, the gold rush of today will not continue.
Prices are dropping daily as more people get into it.
You used to be able to count the number of shemale escorts in Canada on one hand, now there is 300 ads on shemale canada.
Easy to see where things are going, it is turning into a buyers market.
Legalizing it will drive prices even furthing down and then you will have to deal with regulation, licensing and tax.
Truly I think sex workers should leave well enought alone, there is a reason you are not working a regular job.
Once it becomes a regular job, it will no longer have the freedom and appeal it does today.

Everyone lobbying for completely legal sex work thinks things will remain as today, but just legal.
This will not happen, it's pretty easy to see.