Orlando Massacre Shooter: Terrorist? Homophobe? Self-loathing Closeted Gay?

[idleflow]

His wife dint have a gun so there you go. She is just as guilty. I hope she rots in jail.

[alex99]

There's a lot in this clip to consider, but I think what Sam Harris has to say at 40:00 and onward about Orlando and related concerns is spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT3Bl-a7pCo

[Mouthwideopen]

There's a lot in this clip to consider, but I think what Sam Harris has to say at 40:00 and onward about Orlando and related concerns is spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT3Bl-a7pCo

Thanks for that clip. 49:35 is exactly what we're seeing here in this very thread. Disappointing to say the least. 57:20 and on is what people should let sink in. Aside from Harris' takedown of the naive Ben Affleck; this is one of my favourite clips of him - knocking a jewish theist down a peg or two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6X0GEYnBU

[alex99]

deleted

[Shyla Wild]

And me; I believe a culture that throws people from rooftops and stones people would benefit from taking a hard look at itself... and those who defend- who would most certainly be thrown off rooftops themselves of course... should also take a hard look at themselves and who they defend.

We are talking about the Unitied States. A First world country. You are talking about second and third world countries. So when these countries become developed to our point then I 100% agree. Until then, why do people in a 1st world country shoot up the place every 3-4 months?

The military strength that allows for such a high quality of life as one enjoyed in the west is the very target of people kept warm and safe behind the very blanket of security that is provided. How ironic. It's like a petulant child complaining about the machete that the bushman keeping themselves and their family safe in the jungle - is using to protect them.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. The top 10 countries with the highest standard of living are not the same countries the top 10 military spending. In fact, not 1 country appears on both lists.

http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-lif...by_country.jsp

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...y_expenditures

As for society and culture... are they not byproducts of human nature? Is it society for example that turns people gay? Or is it nature? Is it the gay gene? Many experiments have proven that newborn children blindfolded since birth with zero cultural/societal influence when dropped in the middle of a blanket with Tonka trucks and lego on one end and pink barbie toys on the other display inherent traits. Anyone want to guess which sexes or sexual preferences chose which end of the blanket to crawl to?

Culture is the byproduct of human interaction. Not human Nature. It's why people from different parts of the world behave differently from each other, eat different things and enjoy different things. In business, we have something called market segmentation is which a product is adjusted for the likes and dislikes or certains areas. For example, Pepsi might be sweeter in Quebec than in LA.

And Nature turns people gay just like Nature turns people straight.

As the obesity crisis grows should we blame forks and move for a ban of forks or simply ask that people control their eating habits? Do we get to conveniently pick and choose depending on our biases and cognitive dissonance when to blame society/culture and when we demand that it's nature? For example does studying ballet make someone gay or are some of us simply "born that way"? Do gun laws make people violent or are people violent by nature?

Culture teachs hate. Here is the difference with that argument with guns killing people and forks making people fat and pens misspelling words. I give that fork to different people and not all people using the fork in the way it was intended to be used will get fat, and not every person is going to misspell words. But if I give that gun to different people and they use as intended, it kills. Final.

Puff puff pass. I'll gladly have some of whatever you're smoking.

Don't bother...you already drank the Koolaid.

I'm not posting this to change any of the fellow posters minds.... cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing not to be undone by brutally honest introspection; ego investment is a hard thing to overcome. It's future readers that will really enjoy this thread for all it's irony.

Likewise, what we believe can easily be undone with common sense and stats. And brutal honesty always bows to the hard truth.

[ooshower]

You tell em girl

We are talking about the Unitied States. A First world country. You are talking about second and third world countries. So when these countries become developed to our point then I 100% agree. Until then, why do people in a 1st world country shoot up the place every 3-4 months?



Unfortunately, you are incorrect. The top 10 countries with the highest standard of living are not the same countries the top 10 military spending. In fact, not 1 country appears on both lists.

http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-lif...by_country.jsp

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...y_expenditures



Culture is the byproduct of human interaction. Not human Nature. It's why people from different parts of the world behave differently from each other, eat different things and enjoy different things. In business, we have something called market segmentation is which a product is adjusted for the likes and dislikes or certains areas. For example, Pepsi might be sweeter in Quebec than in LA.

And Nature turns people gay just like Nature turns people straight.




Culture teachs hate. Here is the difference with that argument with guns killing people and forks making people fat and pens misspelling words. I give that fork to different people and not all people using the fork in the way it was intended to be used will get fat, and not every person is going to misspell words. But if I give that gun to different people and they use as intended, it kills. Final.





Don't bother...you already drank the Koolaid.




Likewise, what we believe can easily be undone with common sense and stats. And brutal honesty always bows to the hard truth.

[Mouthwideopen]

Culture is the byproduct of human interaction. Not human Nature.
And Nature turns people gay just like Nature turns people straight.


Likewise, what we believe can easily be undone with common sense and stats. And brutal honesty always bows to the hard truth.

So nature turns people gay or straight. And humans being violent has nothing to do with human nature.... no it's guns, video games or both that cause violence I suppose... just as forks cause obesity.

You say culture is the byproduct of human interaction; so what gives direction to human interactions? Do you think that every living thing on this planet has a nature to their existence but somehow humans are exempt from this? Humans are many things -violent among them- due to our very nature. Go ahead and ignore this.... tell me what you seem to think really determines human interactions besides our nature/instincts.

Common sense and statistics (namely Pew research polls in majority muslim countries) tell us that Islam itself preaches and practices the hatred of gays. You and others here contend that Omar Mateen's killing of gays in Orlando had nothing to do with his gay-killing faith. This is intellectual dishonesty in it's purest form.

Here's a very hard truth for you; no one ever at any time will ever see you or any other western ts escorts tour any Muslim majority countries... because you know for a fact that you would be killed in some brutal fashion if you did. Do as many logical gymnastics as you like; the Islamic faith hates and kills gays, lesbians, trans and women on a regular basis. Play your game of silly bugger and ignore that hard truth.

Ignore the fact that gun free countries and zones like the ones where we've already seen numerous massacres are useless in stopping mad men. Ignore the fact that no law stops any activity. Why do people still get murdered? Don't people know that murder is against the law? Laughable if it weren't so bloody naive and stupid.

Like I said earlier; feel free to pm me when you plan your tour of the Muslim world. Keep your head in the sand and pretend that Omar Mateen's faith (which preaches and demonstrates openly and often the death penalty for being gay) had nothing to do with his motivations that night.

It seems you prefer to remain ignorant and misinformed on these matters. So be it. You can lead a ts who's hung like a horse to water but no one can make her drink.

[Shyla Wild]

So nature turns people gay or straight. And humans being violent has nothing to do with human nature.... no it's guns, video games or both that cause violence I suppose... just as forks cause obesity.

Once again, I put a fork in everyone's Hand, and used as intended not everyone gets fat. I let everyone play video games and not everyone is drawn to violence because not all videogames are violent. But, A gun is intended to kill, hurt and injury.

You say culture is the byproduct of human interaction; so what gives direction to human interactions? Do you think that every living thing on this planet has a nature to their existence but somehow humans are exempt from this? Humans are many things -violent among them- due to our very nature. Go ahead and ignore this.... tell me what you seem to think really determines human interactions besides our nature/instincts.

There is no scientific data to prove your statement that humans are violent.

* Even if a behavior is universal, we cannot automatically conclude it is part of our biological nature. All known cultures may produce pottery, but that doesn?t mean there is a gene for pottery making. Other institutions once thought to be natural are now very difficult to find. In a century or two, says University of Missouri sociologist Donald Granberg, ?it is possible that people will look back and regard war in much the same way as today we look back at the practice of slavery.?* Aggression, in any case, is nowhere near universal. Montagu has edited a book entitled Learning Non-Aggression, which features accounts of peaceful cultures. It is true that these are hunter-gatherer societies, but the fact that any humans live without violence would seem to refute the charge that we are born aggressive. In fact, cultures that are ?closer to nature? would be expected to be the most warlike if the proclivity for war were really part of that nature. Just the reverse seems to be true. The late Erich Fromm put it this way: ?The most primitive men are the least warlike and . . . warlikeness grows in proportion to civilization. If destructiveness were innate in man, the trend would have to be the opposite.?Just as impressive as peaceful cultures are those that have become peaceful. In a matter of a few centuries, Sweden has changed from a fiercely warlike society to one of the least violent among industrialized nations. This shift ? like the existence of war itself ? can more plausibly be explained in terms of social and political factors rather than by turning to biology.* While it is indisputable that wars have been fought frequently, the fact that they seem to dominate our history may say more about how history is presented than about what actually happened. ?We write and teach our history in terms of violent events, marking time by wars,? says Temple University psychologist Jeffrey Goldstein. ?When we don?t have wars, we call it the ?interwar years.? It?s a matter of selective reporting.?* Similarly, our outrage over violence can lead us to overstate its prevalence today. ?Every year in the United States, 250 million people do not commit homicide,? Goldstein observes. ?Even in a violent society, it?s a relatively rare event.? It is difficult to reconcile a theory of innate human aggressiveness with the simple fact that most people around us seem quite peaceful.Many people have claimed that ?human nature? is aggressive on the basis of having lumped together a wide range of emotions and behavior under the label of aggression. While cannibalism, for example, is sometimes thought of as aggression, it might represent a religious ritual rather than an expression of hostility.http://www.alfiekohn.org/article/humans-innately-aggressive/

Common sense and statistics (namely Pew research polls in majority muslim countries) tell us that Islam itself preaches and practices the hatred of gays. You and others here contend that Omar Mateen's killing of gays in Orlando had nothing to do with his gay-killing faith. This is intellectual dishonesty in it's purest form.

And listening to the media, respewing their views without thinking for yourself is what?

Here's a very hard truth for you; no one ever at any time will ever see you or any other western ts escorts tour any Muslim majority countries... because you know for a fact that you would be killed in some brutal fashion if you did. Do as many logical gymnastics as you like; the Islamic faith hates and kills gays, lesbians, trans and women on a regular basis. Play your game of silly bugger and ignore that hard truth.

Geez....I should cancel my plans for the Middle East. Just out of curiosity, unless you are Muslim .... Would anyone want to visit these countries?

Ignore the fact that gun free countries and zones like the ones where we've already seen numerous massacres are useless in stopping mad men. Ignore the fact that no law stops any activity. Why do people still get murdered? Don't people know that murder is against the law? Laughable if it weren't so bloody naive and stupid.

Ready to stick your foot in your mouth again? I give you Japan, where it's illegal to own a gun. Do you know there is a better chance of getting struck by lightning?

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...deaths/260189/

Like I said earlier; feel free to pm me when you plan your tour of the Muslim world. Keep your head in the sand and pretend that Omar Mateen's faith (which preaches and demonstrates openly and often the death penalty for being gay) had nothing to do with his motivations that night.

PM me when you visit Syria or any Warzone. No? How about SOUTH CENTRAL LOS ANGELES? Now you understand how stupid saying "PM me when you visit Muslim countries". Why would I visit a 2nd or 3rd world nation? I would not feel safe. Just the way a 1st world country like the USA does not make people feel safe.

It seems you prefer to remain ignorant and misinformed on these matters. So be it. You can lead a ts who's hung like a horse to water but no one can make her drink.

Im the one posting links to information. (University professor papers, world stats, etc) But I want to thank you for helping me show what media propaganda can do to a person.

Know what's funny about all this? You seem to think that mudslinging by calling me uninformed, ignorant etc will bully me in this. The fact is, I see a person that listens to the 6pm news to make their opinions. That's fine. But you have nothing but your opinion and the filtered view of the media. I have shown you numerous times that many of your views have no merit, and if they did you did nothing to defend them. I see no outside sources, no statistical correlations and sorry to say this but no common sense.

[alex99]

deleted

[TSFantasia]

That was someone else's rant that Shyla copied..

But anyhow..

I am not an apologist and most certainly not a self hating westerner.. I don't believe in racism.. There's good people, bad people, dumb people and smart people.. They come in all races, colours, faiths, shapes, sizes and ages.. The worst people I know of in this world are unfortunately white..

I also firmly believe that the most racist, dishonest and loathful people in the world are those that follow the Talmud and consider themselves as the master race, who are also typically white.. After that comes the Saudis and the whole Wahhabi version of Islam.. Wahhabi Islam is also the same sect of Islam as ISIL.. It worries me a bit cuz Vancouver is full of Saudi male students that travel around in groups.. Other versions of Islam are generally much more moderate than Wahhabiism..

I think all sects of the god of Abraham should be phased out.. God as in the bible and other holy books just doesn't jive in this day and age..

And the west has been oppressing the people of the middle east since the fall of the Ottoman empire.. That's like 200 years.. There's a reason they hate the west.. Have a look at Iran before the revolution.. Iraq before the USA.. Lybia before the USA.. Syria before the USA..

With all the recent crap going on in the Baltic, The South China Sea, mounting tension Palestine and in Syria with new calls for American's to bomb Assad's army we might well be on our way to fixing global warming and our consumption problem via a nuclear winter.. I'm sure that those who have the means have a plan to survive it..

War is money and power and more war is more money and power.. that's the way of the west.. I don't particularly approve..

While unequivocally condemning acts of terrorism and the mass killing of innocent civilians as acts of cowardice & murder , whether that be in Paris, Brussels, Orlando, Instanbul, or anywhere else in the world. I do understand the reasonings behind terrorism and that the U.S. & other western countries are contributors to the wider acceptance of jihadism by decades of oppression and control of these countries' governments and resources. Terrorists/guerilla groups/freedom fighters are born out of desperation. Terrorism is meant to cause instability. To undermine the sense of security that we as westerners take for granted. Possibly misguided thinking it will cause citizens of the affected countries to put pressure on their governments to withdraw from meddling or "occupying" these countries and leave them to their own people.

But grief's initial stages are denial and anger which usually leads to the opposite calls for war, calls for military intervention. It's hard to imagine with the atrocities that ISIS has perpetrated on it's own people and fellow Muslims that the West would ever agree to a complete pull out to leave these countries in the hands of such violent extremists. So it's likely to be a long ongoing war on terrorism and Muslim extremists.

[Mouthwideopen]

That Allah guy... he wasn't violent was he?

My contention - that nobody has acknowledged the legitimacy of let alone challenge... is that it was Omar Mateen's faith of Islam that motivated his actions in Orlando. Problem A is Islam and it's incompatibility with western ideals. Everyone quickly ignore problem A and look at problem B ....Guns or C... war!

There is no scientific data to prove your statement that humans are violent.

Are you at all familiar with the many thousands of wars we've had on this planet? How about the human sacrifices of Mayans, Aztecan's or Romans. I don't exactly need "scientific data" when obvious blatant truth is abundant in many volumes of books at any library.
Say; why does hockey have fighting? Do soccer fans at the Euro ever worry about what section they are in and what jersey they happen to be wearing? Why do some clients seek out sex providers who will smother, bruise, whip and choke them? Never mind... likely has little to do with our innate human nature right? In the lists of top grossing books and movies.... do we see violence in any of them? I wonder why? I suppose it will forever remain a mystery.

And listening to the media, respewing their views without thinking for yourself is what?

I don't get my views from "the news" or "the media". I listen to people who debate issues for a living. People who sharpen their views and opinions against other people and debate these views before audiences. In Theism and consequently Islam; I listen to lectures by primarily people whose agnotstic / atheistic views align with my own. Often it's Hitchens, Dennett, Dawkins and Harris and I don't think they're particularly stupid.


Japan vs U.S.? Yes let's compare apples to oranges;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number...ita_by_country Who reading this honestly thinks that we can take a country with 112.6 guns per 100 people and reduce it to 0.6? How would we do that exactly? What do we do with the over 300 million guns? Lets try being realistic. The 2nd amendment is going nowhere. American history explains why the 2nd amendment exists and why you will never get rid of it.



Do you want to know the differences between Syria and South Central LA? Here's a few:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Syria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_r..._United_States
Scroll way down.... do we see any differences in those checkmark and x columns?

Im the one posting links to information. (University professor papers, world stats, etc) But I want to thank you for helping me show what media propaganda can do to a person..... I see a person that listens to the 6pm news to make their opinions. That's fine. But you have nothing but your opinion and the filtered view of the media. I have shown you numerous times that many of your views have no merit, and if they did you did nothing to defend them. I see no outside sources, no statistical correlations and sorry to say this but no common sense.

I think there's quite a bit of projection going on here. When I turn on the news I do not see people talking about how unfriendly the religion of Islam is to gays, women and apostates. I do see a whole lot of talk about gun laws though..... who's indoctrinated again?

Many in this thread seem to follow the same "Islam is a religion of peace" narrative that Ben Affleck displayed in this clip where he was unwillingly educated by Sam Harris. Sam's last point in this clip is the important one.

http://<a href="https://www.youtube....G4WCLOBPbo</a>

Here's Dawkins commentary the debate:

Here is a clip of Sam Harris talking about the lack of honesty and how Trump (sadly) is the only presidential candidate naming the problem. Of particular importance is 2:30, 3:30 and 11:40 but the entire video is worth watching to truly understand the point.

Does anyone see any correlations with what we see in this thread? Btw Harris is not even a Trump fan... he obliterates him in many speeches online.


You want stats and links?

Western Muslims;

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/659...error-tip-offs

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/78...muslims-survey

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2...to-defend-our/

Here's the ICM poll results; https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-cont...us-topline.pdf
Tables 35, 45, 95 & 115 among others I find troubling

Here's the Pew Research polls:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/0...y-topline1.pdf
Questions 84j, 55, 78,83,84d,92abcd amongst many others shed a little light on why I think Islam and western ideals conflict.

I'm sure most of you will not read any of the links and dismiss them offhand.
I don't really care if I get the last word here as I'm fairly certain that history books and future attacks will clearly prove my argument correct. Rant on and on about Problem B guns all you like.... Problem A - Islam and it's incongruity with the values of the West will be increasingly hard to ignore in coming years.

I expect in response to this a collection of "yes... but ..(insert problem a-n)...... yes... but....(insert problem n-z)... backed up by a chorus of "not all".

[Shyla Wild]

My contention - that nobody has acknowledged the legitimacy of let alone challenge... is that it was Omar Mateen's faith of Islam that motivated his actions in Orlando. Problem A is Islam and it's incompatibility with western ideals. Everyone quickly ignore problem A and look at problem B ....Guns or C... war!

I blamed american culture. Guns are just part of that. But just to be clear, there have been dozens of shootings in the USA, and just like you say people blame the guns, let be honest here. All the shootings and shooters were different with different motives. But they all used a gun.

Are you at all familiar with the many thousands of wars we've had on this planet? How about the human sacrifices of Mayans, Aztecan's or Romans. I don't exactly need "scientific data" when obvious blatant truth is abundant in many volumes of books at any library.

Dont worry, guys like Mateen and Islam Radicials agree with you and don't need or believe in Scientific data.

All those countries also made pottery. Does that mean humans have a natural genetic instinct to make pottery?

I don't get my views from "the news" or "the media".

You post videos from YouTube, telegraph (British newspaper), express (second rate online newspaper), imcinternational (a public opinion firm), mention Ben Affleck... Yet you don't get your views from the Media....

Japan vs U.S.? Yes let's compare apples to oranges;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number...ita_by_country Who reading this honestly thinks that we can take a country with 112.6 guns per 100 people and reduce it to 0.6? How would we do that exactly? What do we do with the over 300 million guns? Lets try being realistic. The 2nd amendment is going nowhere. American history explains why the 2nd amendment exists and why you will never get rid of it.

Im comparing a first world developed country with another 1st world developed country. You asked me to show you one place where it works. I did....now you say I'm comparing apples and oranges? Would you like me to mention EVERY other first world Nation? Or is that comparing apples to oranges too?

This is comparing apples and oranges. Syria vs USA:

Do you want to know the differences between Syria and South Central LA? Here's a few:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Syria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_r..._United_States
Scroll way down.... do we see any differences in those checkmark and x columns?

Thank you for helping me strengthen my stance that telling people to "PM you when we travel to the Middle East" was ridiculous.

I think there's quite a bit of projection going on here. When I turn on the news I do not see people talking about how unfriendly the religion of Islam is to gays, women and apostates. I do see a whole lot of talk about gun laws though..... who's indoctrinated again?

Many in this thread seem to follow the same "Islam is a religion of peace" narrative that Ben Affleck displayed in this clip where he was unwillingly educated by Sam Harris. Sam's last point in this clip is the important one.

Westboro Baptist Church. Anti LGBT in NC.....the problem is not Islam....its religion. Holy Crusades.... All religions have their radicals. Westboro is founded in the USA and tolerated by them.

http://<a href="https://www.youtube....G4WCLOBPbo</a>

Here's Dawkins commentary the debate:

Here is a clip of Sam Harris talking about the lack of honesty and how Trump (sadly) is the only presidential candidate naming the problem. Of particular importance is 2:30, 3:30 and 11:40 but the entire video is worth watching to truly understand the point.

Does anyone see any correlations with what we see in this thread? Btw Harris is not even a Trump fan... he obliterates him in many speeches online.


You want stats and links?

Western Muslims;

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/659...error-tip-offs

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/78...muslims-survey

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2...to-defend-our/

Here's the ICM poll results; https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-cont...us-topline.pdf
Tables 35, 45, 95 & 115 among others I find troubling

Here's the Pew Research polls:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/0...y-topline1.pdf
Questions 84j, 55, 78,83,84d,92abcd amongst many others shed a little light on why I think Islam and western ideals conflict.

I'm sure most of you will not read any of the links and dismiss them offhand.
I don't really care if I get the last word here as I'm fairly certain that history books and future attacks will clearly prove my argument correct. Rant on and on about Problem B guns all you like.... Problem A - Islam and it's incongruity with the values of the West will be increasingly hard to ignore in coming years.

Ahhh...so now we are moving into fortune telling?

I just disarmed almost all your statements with 1 line answers.....not a strong argument.

I expect in response to this a collection of "yes... but ..(insert problem a-n)...... yes... but....(insert problem n-z)... backed up by a chorus of "not all".

Dream on. I never agree with propaganda. Here is the reality. The USA has more shootings than any first world nation. You want to blame Islam, Guns, religion, the easter bunny....it does not matter to me. The reality is...THAT COUNTRY'S CULTURE ACCEPTS THIS and PROMOTES this.

Take your pick: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cate..._United_States

Oh...btw....the 2nd Admentment. I was just wondering. Since they have the right to bear arms, how many times has someone pulled out a gun and shot back at the shooter? Oh! That's right. They act all tough protecting their gun laws, but not each other....instead they do what everyone else does....they run.

talk to you in 3-4 months after the next shooting....Unlike your Fortune Telling skills, 3-4 months is statically the time between USA shootings.

[Mouthwideopen]

Mantra: Problem A doesn't exist.... keep horse blinders on and repeat.... Problem A doesn't exist.
Don't refute anything to do with Problem A........ keep your eye on problem B. Problem B, Problem B, Problem B, Problem B!

I'll entertain your problem B though;

Paris and Belgium... do they have gun control laws there? They do? I wonder why and how deadly attacks keep happening?

Also... how many mass killings, suicide bombings has there been organized by followers of the Westboro Baptist Church? They spew hate... yes... horrible..... but I don't see their followers crusading to kill again and again. Can you at least acknowledge the difference?


Another horrible thing that happened in Orlando was the shooting of singer Christina Grimmie. Should we concentrate our attention on other people who also didn't like Christina Grimmie or should we instead look at what motivated the actual attacker that did kill her?


I'm not against gun control. I just rationally don't think there's a hope for it in the U.S. And even if there was...... gun control won't solve this problem.

Yes... ICM does public opinion polls... as well as the polls cited in the articles you quickly dismiss. Polls are useful in understanding how people feel on a variety of issues. Q13 Table 45; 52% of British muslims think homosexuality should be illegal. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the respondents faith right? Can we blame guns for this?

Whatever we do here; let's not talk about how high the numbers are for Afghanistan in those Pew Research polls.

Let's assume that people coming from a nation with the following stats can integrate just dandy into western society. A nation in which 79% of people polled think that the death penalty is appropriate punishment for leaving the Muslim faith; where 81% agree that cutting off hands is the appropriate punishment for theft, where 84% agree that death by stoning is the appropriate punishment for adultery, 66% agree that a wife must always obey her husband.

Let's stick our collective heads in the ground and pretend that when people from such regions come to America they don't bring any of that backward barbaric thinking with them. They simply hit a reset button behind their ears and voila, they have a new brain cleansed of any hatred or ideology.

Let's not talk about how Imam's in NA openly call for the killing of homosexuals. Let's instead point to other groups that preach the same hatred but whose followers haven't been killing people. Let's pretend there's no difference between groups who spread and preach hate... and groups that actually kill people. Sounds like a recipe for success.

"Problem B!, Problem B!"

[Shyla Wild]

Mantra: Problem A doesn't exist.... keep horse blinders on and repeat.... Problem A doesn't exist.
Don't refute anything to do with Problem A........ keep your eye on problem B. Problem B, Problem B, Problem B, Problem B!

I'll entertain your problem B though;

Paris and Belgium... do they have gun control laws there? They do? I wonder why and how deadly attacks keep happening?

Also... how many mass killings, suicide bombings has there been organized by followers of the Westboro Baptist Church? They spew hate... yes... horrible..... but I don't see their followers crusading to kill again and again. Can you at least acknowledge the difference?


Another horrible thing that happened in Orlando was the shooting of singer Christina Grimmie. Should we concentrate our attention on other people who also didn't like Christina Grimmie or should we instead look at what motivated the actual attacker that did kill her?


I'm not against gun control. I just rationally don't think there's a hope for it in the U.S. And even if there was...... gun control won't solve this problem.

Yes... ICM does public opinion polls... as well as the polls cited in the articles you quickly dismiss. Polls are useful in understanding how people feel on a variety of issues. Q13 Table 45; 52% of British muslims think homosexuality should be illegal. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the respondents faith right? Can we blame guns for this?

Whatever we do here; let's not talk about how high the numbers are for Afghanistan in those Pew Research polls.

Let's assume that people coming from a nation with the following stats can integrate just dandy into western society. A nation in which 79% of people polled think that the death penalty is appropriate punishment for leaving the Muslim faith; where 81% agree that cutting off hands is the appropriate punishment for theft, where 84% agree that death by stoning is the appropriate punishment for adultery, 66% agree that a wife must always obey her husband.

Let's stick our collective heads in the ground and pretend that when people from such regions come to America they don't bring any of that backward barbaric thinking with them. They simply hit a reset button behind their ears and voila, they have a new brain cleansed of any hatred or ideology.

Let's not talk about how Imam's in NA openly call for the killing of homosexuals. Let's instead point to other groups that preach the same hatred but whose followers haven't been killing people. Let's pretend there's no difference between groups who spread and preach hate... and groups that actually kill people. Sounds like a recipe for success.

"Problem B!, Problem B!"

No you say Problem A-B-C... I have been blaming the American culture.

My argument still stands about american culture being an issue. As I am not ignoring any problem I am going past that. Here is the problem. America leads the world in the most shootings with everyone else combined. Everytime, they blame Religion, mental illness, etc on the problem (ie: you) Then another group blames guns how easy it is for them to arm themselves. (Ie: Not me) I said they they should take a hard look at themselves since both are right. I'm sorry but I see a problem with Mentally unstable people, religous fanatics with easy access to weapons. Most sane people do. So blaming them for a shooting is ironic. (Ie:me)

Between 2009-2013 there was 22 shooting rampages combined in the world excluding the USA. The United States had 38. France and Belgium (the 2 countries you mentioned) each had 1 shooting. You don't see a possible problem when you have 73% more of these things than the rest of the world combined?


source: http://archive.is/f4gbv

So the only thing that remains constant in majority of these shootings is a Weapon was used and it happens in the USA 1267% more often than the next country germany(3 shootings) and 73% more than the rest of the world combined.

You seriously don't see an issue here?

You keep defending guns....but my argument is american culture....or are they one and the same? If you ban guns, they will just find another way to kill each other.

And that is the Problem not the guns,religion, mental health or any other reason you want to pin on this. The people accept this violence, murder and just move on to the next one. No solution is found or attempted and if it is, it is clearly not working. Once again, 38 US shootings vs 22 world combined shootings. I know you are going to try to mention some Warzone country in defense but doing so you are going to help strengthen my point again. If you are Comparing The United States with a Warzone(Middle East, Parts of South America, or some Africian Nation like Nigeria what does that say about Amercian Culture?

[Alexis]

I have been blaming the American culture.

You keep defending guns....but my argument is american culture....or are they one and the same? If you ban guns, they will just find another way to kill each other.

And that is the Problem not the guns,religion, mental health or any other reason you want to pin on this. The people accept this violence, murder and just move on to the next one. No solution is found or attempted and if it is, it is clearly not working. Once again, 38 US shootings vs 22 world combined shootings. I know you are going to try to mention some Warzone country in defense but doing so you are going to help strengthen my point again. If you are Comparing The United States with a Warzone(Middle East, Parts of South America, or some Africian Nation like Nigeria what does that say about Amercian Culture?

Ya I'm pretty sure Americans are their own problem..

The really sad thing is that opiate overdoses outnumber gun deaths in the USA..

Just remember there's over 350 million of then down there.. and they all have guns.. lol..